0001
 1                     UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
 2                       NORTHERN DISTRICT OF OHIO
 3   JOHN G. SPIRKO, JR.,
 4                       Petitioner,              Case No. 3:95 CV 7209
 5                  V.
 6   MARGARET BRADSHAW, WARDEN,
 7                       Respondent.
     ____________________________________/                             
 8   
 9                   The Deposition of CONNIE MOTTINGER           
10                       Date:  Wednesday, May 18, 2005           
11                       Time:  8:00 AM                           
12                       Place:  Ramada Inn                       
13                          3855 North State Road 127             
14                          Angola, Indiana:                      
15                    Called as a witness herein, in              
16                   Accordance with the Rules of Civil           
17                                Procedure.                      
18   Before Karla D. Worthington, CSR                             
19   Registered Professional Reporter                             
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25   
0002
 1   APPEARANCES:
 2                       ALVIN DUNN, Esquire
 3                            And
 4                       THOMAS C. HILL, Esquire
 5                            Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman, LLP
 6                            2300 N Street, NW
 7                            Washington, DC 20037
 8                            202.663.8355
 9                       Appearing on behalf of the Petitioner;
10                       
11                       CHARLES WILLE, Esquire                 
12                            And                               
13                       TIMOTHY D. PRICHARD, Esquire           
14                            State of Ohio                     
15                            Office of the Attorney General    
16                            30 East Broad Street              
17                            23rd Floor                        
18                            Columbus, OH 43215                
19                            614.728.7055                      
20                        Appearing on behalf of the Respondent.
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22   
23   
24   
25   
0003
 1                               I N D E X
 2                  THE DEPOSITION OF CONNIE MOTTINGER
 3   
 4   DIRECT EXAMINATION                                          PAGE
 5              by Mr. Dunn........................................4
 6   CROSS-EXAMINATION
 7              by Mr. Wille......................................94
 8   REDIRECT EXAMINATION
 9              by Mr. Dunn......................................135
10   
11   EXHIBIT                                                        
12        1  Interview with Paul Hartman..........................44
13        2  Affidavit of Connie Mottinger........................50
14        3  Affidavit of Paul Hartman............................76
15        4  Handwritten notes entitled "News - Radio & Papers"...82
16        5  Interview with Home J. Chapa, 12/6/02................83
17        6  Letter to Mr. Strausbaugh from Connie Mottinger        
18           dated 2/20/05........................................84
19        7  Letter to Mr. Wasky from Connie Mottinger dated        
20           2/23/05..............................................85
21        8  Letter to Mr. Wille from Connie Mottinger dated        
22           2/23/05..............................................86
23        9  Handwritten notes....................................91
24       10  Handwritten notes....................................92
25   
0004
 1                           CONNIE S. MOTTINGER
 2                         having been duly sworn,
 3                   was examined and testified as follows:
 4                          DIRECT EXAMINATION
 5   BY MR. DUNN:
 6   Q:    Good morning, Mrs. Mottinger.
 7   A:    Good morning.
 8   Q:    I'm Alvin Dunn.  And as you know, our law firm represents
 9         John Spirko who is the petitioner in the case that brings
10         us here.
11   A:    Yes.
12   Q:    You know Mr. Hill.
13              MR. HILL:  Good morning.
14   A:    Yes.  Good morning.
15   BY MR. DUNN:
16   Q:    I think you have met Mr. Wille and Mr. Prichard?
17   A:    I certainly have.
18   Q:    If you could please state your full for the court reporter.
19   A:    Connie Sue Mottinger.
20   Q:    Could you state address, please.
21   A:    4655 N 575 East, Fremont, Indiana.
22   Q:    Have you ever been deposed before?
23   A:    No.  I don't even know what you are doing.  No.
24   Q:    I would like to explain some of the procedures of the
25         deposition for you.
0005
 1   A:    Okay.
 2   Q:    First I will be asking you questions.  And when I'm
 3         finished, Mr. Wille or Mr. Prichard, I'm not sure which one
 4         of them, will be asking you questions, but one of them will
 5         have the opportunity to ask you questions.
 6   A:    Okay.
 7   Q:    My questions and your answers just like Mr. Wille's or Mr.
 8         Prichard's questions and your answers will be taken down by
 9         Ms. Worthington here, who is a certified court reporter.
10   A:    Okay.
11   Q:    She can only record the words that are spoken.  So please
12         try to speak clearly as you have been doing.  And she can't
13         take down gestures like nods of the head or shakes of the
14         head.
15   A:    Okay.
16   Q:    So please try and speak your answers.
17              And for her benefit, if you could try and wait until
18         the question is finished before answering.  We always have
19         a tendency to answer in the middle of a question, that
20         would just be more helpful for her because it would be
21         easier for her to take down one person speaking than two.
22   A:    I will.
23   Q:    Very important.  If you ever do not understand a question,
24         please let me know and I'll rephrase it or re-ask it.  Do
25         you understand?
0006
 1   A:    Yes, I do.
 2   Q:    And if you ever need a break, let us know.  We will let you
 3         take a break.  If you need to call your father or anything,
 4         please let us know.
 5   A:    Thank you.
 6   Q:    Are you currently on any medications that would affect your
 7         memory?
 8   A:    No, sir.
 9   Q:    Wait one second.
10              (There was a brief interruption in the proceeding.)
11              (The previous question and answer were read by the
12         reporter.)
13   BY MR. DUNN:
14   Q:    Are you on any medications that would affect your ability
15         to understand my questions?
16   A:    No, sir.
17   Q:    And are you on any medication that would affect your
18         ability to answer my questions truthfully?
19   A:    No, sir.
20   Q:    Can you just tell us briefly how you became aware of the
21         kidnapping and murder of Betty Jane Mottinger?
22   A:    I met Clarence Mottinger approximately six years after the
23         death of his wife Betty Jane.  And we fell quite in love,
24         and I became the second Mrs. Mottinger.  And through that,
25         marrying him and the family and being with the family, the
0007
 1         children, I learned all the details that they told me.
 2   Q:    It was Mr. Mottinger as well as the family members?
 3   A:    Oh, yes.
 4   Q:    Did there come a point in time where you began to assist in
 5         the writing of a book about Janie Mottinger?
 6   A:    Yes.  Clarence was approached by Theo Bennett right after
 7         Janie was murdered to write a book.  And he refused at that
 8         time.  Clarence didn't want to relive anything.  About in I
 9         will say 2000 -- no, let's say 2000.  In 2000 Clarence came
10         to the place that he could talk about Janie.  He was very
11         interested about Janie and what was going on, and he said,
12         "Let's go get back with Theo Bennett, and I want a book so
13         that people remember Janie."
14   Q:    Who is Theo Bennett?
15   A:    Theo Bennett is -- Dorothy Bennett, Clarence's sister --
16         Theo Bennett is Dorothy's brother-in-law.
17   Q:    So Clarence's sister married a Bennett?
18   A:    Yes.  It would be Theo's brother who Dorothy married, yes.
19   Q:    Is he still alive?
20   A:    Yes.
21   Q:    And where do Jess and Dorothy live?
22   A:    Max and Dorothy.
23   Q:    Max.  I'm sorry.  I heard Jess.
24   A:    I'm sorry.  Max and Dorothy, they live in Ohio City, Ohio.
25   Q:    And Theo Bennett, is he still alive?
0008
 1   A:    Theo Bennett is alive.  He lives in Kettering, Ohio.
 2   Q:    I think you said is it in 2000 that the book idea was
 3         revived.
 4   A:    Well, around that time, yes, it was.  After that time.
 5         Between 1999 and 2000 Clarence really got interested in
 6         getting a book out because he didn't want people to forget
 7         his Janie.
 8   Q:    So then what did he do at that point?
 9   A:    We contacted Theo Bennett to see if he was still interested
10         in writing the book.  Theo said, yes, he would.  We went
11         down and visited Theo and Marlene Bennett and talked to
12         them about doing the book.  It was discussed.  The idea
13         became that we would furnish the information.  All the
14         information would come from Clarence and I, or most of all
15         the information would come from Clarence and I, and Theo
16         would do the writing.  Theo had another book out.  He has
17         wrote books before, and he has wrote for magazines before.
18         So it just isn't a guy out of the blue.
19   Q:    You mentioned Marlene.  Is that Theo's wife?
20   A:    Yes, it is.  Marlene Bennett is Theo's wife.
21   Q:    So was she going to be involved in this as well?
22   A:    Well, Marlene kind of helps Theo with everything.  And
23         she's good with English and everything.  And yes, yes.
24              Theo took a journalism class.  I shouldn't say that, I
25         guess.  Theo took something that helped him to write books
0009
 1         and Theo -- and Marlene helps Theo.
 2   Q:    I think you said that you and Clarence were going to
 3         provide the information; is that correct?
 4   A:    Yes.  So Clarence and I, that's when he became really into
 5         this.  We had decided that we were going to write and see
 6         if we could get a petition going for the execution of
 7         Spirko.  That was when we started this entire thing of
 8         let's get this on the road.  We did that.  We started a
 9         petition.  We got the petition done within a week's time.
10         It's 2000 and some odd number of names that was on the
11         petition.  And we started investigating on our own.
12              Clarence never did believe that Spirko was 100 percent
13         the sole person in this.  He wanted to get them all, every
14         one of them.  And it seemed like the more we got
15         investigating, the more interviews we did with people, the
16         more Clarence became positive that Spirko was not the only
17         one.  He and I believe and to this day believe that Spirko
18         was involved, but we do not believe that he was the sole
19         person.
20              We got this petition done.  I took the petition to the
21         governor.  I took the petition to Mr. Wille.  And presented
22         -- I think I sent it also to Mr. Dunn's office, Mr. Hill's
23         office, the petition.  Then we started in with our
24         interviews.
25   Q:    You said that you and Clarence never believed that Mr.
0010
 1         Spirko was the only one.  At trial, though, they didn't
 2         present him as the only one, did they?
 3   A:    I don't know, sir.  I was not at that trial.
 4   Q:    Are you aware of what -- from reading in this case what the
 5         theory was that was presented at trial?
 6   A:    Clarence told me and I had heard from the family that they
 7         had brought in a man, Mr. Delaney Gibson.  They thought
 8         that he was, had involvement with it.  And for a while
 9         Clarence absolutely thought, yes, Delaney Gibson was it
10         until we did some investigating.  And then upon that
11         investigation we changed our minds on Delaney Gibson, and
12         Clarence in his mind and the family's mind always thought
13         it was Spirko and a Mr. -- I think you pronounce it
14         Willier.  Willier.
15   Q:    Is it W-i-l-l-i-e-r?
16   A:    Yes, yes, that's the one.  And Clarence was totally
17         convinced it was him and Mr. Spirko.
18   Q:    And if you can remember, what was that based on?  That
19         conclusion?
20   A:    The interviews we had made.
21   Q:    And you said you did a petition.
22   A:    Yes, we did.
23   Q:    Do you remember when that was, whether it was 2000, 2001,
24         or 1999?
25   A:    Right offhand at this moment, no, I cannot tell you.  But
0011
 1         it was at the top of the petition that I presented to you
 2         the date, to you, too, Mr. Wille.  So I'm sure you can find
 3         that.
 4   Q:    And had you and Clarence conducted any interviews before
 5         you did that petition to investigate the case or did you do
 6         all of --
 7   A:    Yes, we did.  I contacted a gentleman from Swanton, Ohio
 8         who was on the case at the time and asked him if he could
 9         remember arresting Mr. Spirko.  He now I believe or was
10         when I interviewed him, he was chief over there of the
11         sheriff's department.
12   Q:    Do you remember that person's name?
13   A:    I would like to say Chapa or C-h-a-p-a or something like
14         that.
15   Q:    Did you meet with this individual?
16   A:    Yes, I did.  I met with him.  I asked him all kinds of
17         questions about Spirko, why Spirko was brought in at the
18         time, what Spirko had done to make them go after him at the
19         time.  I asked him in detail.  He told me everything.  He
20         told me where Spirko's sister lived.  I even took a trip
21         down there to see her, go by her house.  He told me where
22         Spirko was arrested at, at the saloon.  He told me what had
23         taken place to make him arrest him to go after him at the
24         saloon.  He told me they didn't have a place there to house
25         him and he was taken to Wauseon.  So that took us to
0012
 1         Wauseon.  So I also went to Wauseon, and I also
 2         interviewed, asked if there was anybody that was still
 3         there that would remember or know something about Mr.
 4         Spirko that I could interview.  And at that time I was told
 5         there was a man that was there and he is still there.  He
 6         is an investigator, I believe, there at this time.
 7              Anyways, he told me what had happened.  He told me
 8         about Mrs. Smith, Spirko's girlfriend, and how she helped
 9         him to escape the Wauseon Prison where he was being kept at
10         that time.  I went to look into her background thinking I
11         could find something about her but was unable to because I
12         was told that her record or whatever was expunged or
13         whatever you would like to call that.  It was cleaned up
14         and I couldn't find her.  I couldn't find her.  So that was
15         a dead end there.
16              So then we decided that we would go to Findlay and I
17         would contact somebody there and interview them and I
18         wanted to get ahold of who found the body and so forth.
19         And I talked to a Mr. Insley there who was very close with
20         it.  I guess he was there when the body was found and so
21         forth.  He is now retired from the Findley Police Force,
22         but I interviewed him before his retirement.
23   Q:    Let me just ask you about these interviews.  First of all,
24         did all of these happen before the petition or some after
25         the petition?
0013
 1   A:    It was during.
 2   Q:    And just briefly I want to go back.  When you did that
 3         first interview -- I think that was of the Swanton chief of
 4         police; is that right?
 5   A:    Yes.
 6   Q:    Were you alone or was Clarence Mottinger with you?
 7   A:    Clarence was with me in the car.  Clarence was very ill in
 8         1999.  He had first gotten cancer, and he was with me in
 9         the car, and I asked him if he wouldn't come out and talk
10         to them.  And he said, "Oh, of course."  So Clarence was
11         with me.
12   Q:    And for that first interview, did you tape record it?
13   A:    No, I did not.
14   Q:    Did you take any notes?
15   A:    Yes, I did.
16   Q:    And do you still have those notes?
17   A:    To be real truthful with you, I found those notes not to be
18         very helpful because it was the same thing, exactly the
19         same thing that I had heard and gotten before in reports
20         that I had asked for.  He didn't have anything new or
21         nothing exciting to give me.
22   Q:    Did he give you any documents?
23   A:    No, he did not.  Findlay gave me documents.
24   Q:    I want to go next, you said, you mentioned an interview as
25         -- is it Wauseon, you said?
0014
 1   A:    Wauseon is how I pronounce it.  Maybe I missed on that.  I
 2         actually don't know how to pronounce it.
 3   Q:    Was Clarence with you for that interview?
 4   A:    Also the same way, Clarence was in the car.
 5   Q:    Did you tape record that interview?
 6   A:    No, I did not.
 7   Q:    Did you take any notes?
 8   A:    Yes, I did.  I took notes while I was there.  The notes
 9         that I had taken I came home and I wrote them right away,
10         immediately on my computer.  And I sent these notes on to
11         Theo Bennett.  The man at Wauseon had even drawn a picture
12         for me laying out how the jail was, where the doors were,
13         where the car was parked that Spirko was going to go to and
14         so forth.  All that was given to Theo Bennett.  I do not
15         have that in my possession.
16   Q:    When you wrote the notes up, though, you said you did it on
17         your computer, right?
18   A:    I did it on my computer.  And even to be real truthful with
19         you, the notes that I took from the gentleman in Swanton,
20         those notes were also on my computer.  They are there.  And
21         then I sent them on to Theo Bennett.
22   Q:    When you sent these notes to Theo, did you e-mail them to
23         him or did you print them out and mail them?
24   A:    Print them out and mailed them.  I -- I'm not very good on
25         computer.  I know how to turn it on and I know how to type
0015
 1         and that's just about as far as I go.  They told me that it
 2         could always be saved on a computer no matter what you do
 3         with it.  So I figured that was my backup.  You know, that
 4         was it.  So what I did is I put it on the little round
 5         disk, downloaded it on a little round disk and whipped it
 6         off to Theo thinking it was always in my computer.  But my
 7         worst part that I have found is that I'm not intelligent
 8         enough on computers that after I download it, I can't find
 9         the son of a gun.
10   Q:    Did you spend Theo the actual disks?
11   A:    Yes.
12   Q:    And did you send him a printout or just the disk?
13   A:    Disk.  Some of them could have been printouts because when
14         I was out -- I should not say we.  Theo was writing the
15         book but we were giving them information.  So what I would
16         do is I would say Clarence -- this is an example.  I would
17         say Clarence's memories were coming back and was so vivid
18         for him.  He remembered this after interviewing so and so.
19         I was putting in emotions for this.  A good book cannot be
20         done, they say, unless there is emotions.  So I was writing
21         down the victim, which was Clarence.  He lost his wife.  I
22         was writing down the stress, the emotions he was going
23         through and his feelings and his thoughts.
24              So, yes, it was more than just that that I sent Theo.
25         It was more Clarence's emotions also.
0016
 1   Q:    So the disk and/or the printout that you sent Clarence
 2         included all of this from Theo?
 3   A:    Absolutely.
 4   Q:    Just generally from what you can remember, what were some
 5         of those thoughts and emotions that Clarence was having as
 6         you were doing these earlier interviews?
 7   A:    He was getting madder and madder of course.  It was
 8         bringing up memories that had been suppressed.  He was
 9         remembering more and more.  It made him a go-getter.  It
10         made him absolutely positively, we are going to get all of
11         them.  He was a very furious man.  Very furious.  Gung ho.
12         His mind stayed on this even throughout his illness.  His
13         mind stayed on we got to get them all.
14              I'll tell you what.  Clarence thought and we had been
15         told many times that if you do not pursue this, he thought,
16         that when Spirko would be executed, then that would be the
17         end.  There would be no finding the other guys that was
18         also involved.  It would stop right there with Spirko.  So
19         in Clarence's mind and having cancer, he knew the time was
20         up either for Spirko's execution or for his life.  And he
21         was really now going to get them all.
22   Q:    Let me be clear about something, though.  At this time
23         Delaney Gibson was under indictment for the same crime,
24         correct?
25   A:    At this time, yes, he was.
0017
 1   Q:    Was Mr. Clarence Mottinger saying that they needed to get
 2         Delaney Gibson for this crime when you said get them all?
 3   A:    All right.  What Clarence thought was Delaney Gibson, what
 4         he thought was in Kentucky or he was still being arrested.
 5         So he was in prison.  We knew where he was.  And if he was
 6         going to suffer for this, then he would be brought back for
 7         a trial and he would suffer for this.  We knew where he
 8         was.  But Clarence in his mind was so sure that this Mr.
 9         Willier was involved that he was bound and determined we
10         were going to get him or whoever else was involved.  But we
11         were still out there to get the rest.
12   Q:    Did he think that there was anyone else other than who you
13         refer to as Mr. Willier?
14   A:    That was all that was really on Clarence's mind at that
15         time during those interviews.  We did contact Mr. Eversole,
16         Ralph Eversole.  He was a very good friend of Clarence's.
17         We went to his home and we had a lot of reminiscing and a
18         lot of talk.  And we asked Ralph for an interview.  Ralph
19         said no, not at this time.  Not until this case is
20         considered closed.  We asked Ralph when he considered it to
21         be closed.  And Ralph said when Spirko's execution.  So
22         that was the end of our interview with Ralph Eversole.
23              So then he called Mr. Strausbaugh, Thomas Strausbaugh,
24         and we asked Tom if he could help us out in any way.  Tom
25         said he had been away from it for so long, that he really
0018
 1         don't know how much help he could be, but the case was
 2         still open.  And he didn't want to do anything to hinder
 3         the case at that time.
 4              We contacted Paul Hartman.  Paul said he would be
 5         rather reluctant to give us at that time an interview, but
 6         he would help us out in any way he could.  Clarence later
 7         had called Paul and said," Paul, I have got cancer.  I'm
 8         not doing well.  Help me out, Paul."  Paul said, "Okay.  I
 9         would be glad to help you out."  He agreed to help us.  He
10         had talked to Clarence over and phone, not in person.  All
11         off and on on the phone.
12              Paul said, "Okay.  I have come up with some new
13         information, Clarence."  He said, "I can tell you who did
14         it."  Clarence goes, "Thank God."  He says, "Connie, get on
15         the other phone right away."  We had two phones in our
16         home.
17              I got on the other phone.  Paul at that time told me
18         that he was absolutely positive that it was a James Clark
19         Kelley and an Effie Rader.  I'm not real sure how he
20         pronounced that at that time.  But that's close.  Clarence
21         said, "Where are they and how do you know this?"  He said,
22         "I know this because of investigating."  He said,
23         "Clarence, I have not stopped investigating this case.  I
24         am determined along with you to find out who did this."
25         Clarence thanked him immediately.  He said, "Can you tell
0019
 1         me where they are.  We have to find them."  He said, "I can
 2         tell you Effie is on the loose."  That was Paul's works on
 3         the loose."  Whatever that means.  But he said, "James
 4         Clark Kelley is in a Nevada penitentiary.  And he is doing
 5         life."  Clarence says, "Then how, Paul?  How are we going
 6         to get him?  He won't admit this.  What are we going to do?
 7         How are we going to get him?"
 8              Paul said, "I don't know.  I'm still working on how to
 9         do this."  I tried to get on the computer the best my
10         daughter could help me to find, to go in to find out if he
11         really was in the prison out in Nevada.  I can't find
12         anything.  I don't know how to work the website very well.
13         I found out nothing.  Nothing at all.
14              So then Clarence's health continued to get quite
15         worse.
16   Q:    If I may, I want to stop if you don't mind.
17   A:    Sure.
18   Q:    Because this phone conversation with Paul Hartman happened
19         when Clarence Mottinger was still alive, right?
20   A:    Absolutely.
21   Q:    And when did Clarence Mottinger die?
22   A:    October 28, 2003.
23   Q:    And do you remember, knowing that date, any more precisely
24         when the conversation, the telephone conversation you just
25         described with Mr. Hartman took place?  Do you know whether
0020
 1         it was 2002 or 2001?
 2   A:    No, it had to be -- it was before Christmas.  So it had to
 3         have been in 2002 because it was before Christmas.  He died
 4         October of 2003.
 5   Q:    Do you remember when the argument was before the Sixth
 6         Circuit Court of Appeals?
 7   A:    Was it before or after that is what you are asking me.
 8   Q:    Yeah.  I'm asking you if you remember when that was first
 9         of all, about?
10   A:    Yeah, I had contacted Mr. Wille, and Mr. Wille was gracious
11         enough, he gave me a black and white briefing of the Sixth
12         Circuit Court briefing.  Do you remember that?
13              I'm sorry.  Forget that.
14   Q:    That's okay.  You can continue.
15   A:    Okay.  He was good enough to do that.  And it was about the
16         same time that I had received that that Mr. Hartman told me
17         that because I went frantically -- it was because I went
18         frantically to that book and tried to find a James Clark
19         Kelley anywhere in that book that he had sent me.
20   Q:    Did you find it?
21   A:    No.
22   Q:    Let me just ask you a couple more questions about that
23         conversation.  So you think it was around the time --
24   A:    Yes.
25   Q:    -- of the Sixth Circuit argument?
0021
 1   A:    It had to be a little bit around or before that time.  I
 2         know it was before Christmas -- and the reason I tell you
 3         that it was before Christmas is the family had came home.
 4         And by "the family," I'm talking about Clarence's three
 5         children.  And there Clarence says, "Kids, you know we have
 6         a lead on your mom.  We got a lead.  Paul Hartman told us
 7         it was a James Clark Kelley and an Effie Rader."
 8              And I know that one son ignored it.  The daughter just
 9         taken in surprise and covered her mouth and said, "Dad,
10         let's not talk about Mama."  And then the oldest son said,
11         "Dad, I want that wrote down."  And so Clarence looked at
12         me and said, "Write the names down for him."  And I wrote
13         the names down for him and handed it to him.  So this is
14         why I'm saying it had to be around Christmas because the
15         children were home.
16   Q:    Which son asked for you to write it down?
17   A:    Kent, the oldest.
18   Q:    And let me just go back and ask a couple more questions
19         about your telephone conversation when Mr. Hartman told you
20         that it was James Clark Kelley and Effie Rader.  Did you
21         tape that conversation?
22   A:    No, sir.  I don't know how to tape on a phone.
23   Q:    Did you take notes from that conversation?
24   A:    From that conversation, I told him to tell me again the
25         names, and the notice I took down was I wrote down those
0022
 1         names because I wanted to find them.  And I wanted him to
 2         spell the name to me so I could find it any way I could on
 3         the computer.  I wanted to find him for Clarence.
 4   Q:    Whether Mr. Hartman said it was James Clark Kelley and
 5         Effie Rader, did you ask or discuss with Mr. Hartman
 6         whether anyone else other than those two were involved in
 7         the kidnapping and murder of Janie?
 8   A:    We asked how he knew this.  And he said, "I have quite a
 9         story to tell you about how this has came about."  He said,
10         "A very good friend of mine who also was in an inspector or
11         is an inspector."  I'm not sure which way he said that came
12         across this.  And he said, "It's just unbelievable how this
13         story has taken place."
14              Clarence says, "I want to talk to you, Paul.  I want
15         the details.  Please, Paul, help us out at this time."  And
16         he begged Paul.
17              Clarence's health was going downhill.  Every time we
18         wanted to talk to Paul, every time Paul said he would talk
19         to us, Clarence's health went downhill to the place that
20         there was no meeting that could be done.  There was no way
21         any of this could happen.  None of this could happen.
22   Q:    Let me just be clear.  Did you have other telephone
23         conversations with Mr. Hartman about the involvement of
24         James Clark Kelley and Effie Rader after that first one
25         where he revealed their names?
0023
 1   A:    I think we had about two or three, and each time Clarence
 2         would ask him more if he knew anybody or he could call
 3         anybody for us to find out anything more about Effie Rader
 4         or James Clark Kelley.
 5   Q:    During those phone conversations, was there any discussion
 6         about whether, other than those two, anyone else was
 7         involved in the crime?
 8   A:    Clarence did say to him at one point when everything kind
 9         of settled down in our minds, he said, "Well, then, how
10         does Delaney Gibson go in with these other men?  How is
11         this all together?"  And Paul said, "There is a big story
12         behind that, too.  And Dean Delaney is not involved.  It
13         was James Clark Kelley and Effie Rader.  Delaney is not
14         involved, Clarence."  He says, "Then why is he, was he told
15         and indicted and why was the whole world and his family as
16         family having grown to hate somebody that wasn't involved?"
17         He said, "As I said, Clarence, I have investigated this
18         over and over and over.  And I have quite a story to tell
19         you."  He didn't explain why at that time.
20   Q:    He didn't tell Mr. Mottinger why?
21   A:    No, not at that time.
22   Q:    Did he tell you and Mr. Mottinger during those phone
23         conversations when he had learned, when Mr. Hartman had
24         learned about the involvement of James Clark Kelley and
25         Effie Rader?
0024
 1   A:    No, he did not say when he had.  He did not get explicit
 2         with the time or the date.  No, he did not.  He just told
 3         us that he knew it.
 4   Q:    When you had those phone conversations with Mr. Hartman --
 5         and I know you met with him later.
 6   A:    Yes.
 7   Q:    Did he tell you when he had concluded that Delaney Gibson
 8         was not involved?
 9   A:    No, he did not.  He just kept saying I got quite a story to
10         tell you.  No, he did not.
11   Q:    Now, during those phone conversation, did he say anything
12         about the involvement or non-involvement of Mr. Spirko in
13         the crime?
14   A:    Always.  He has always said Spirko was involved.  Mr.
15         Hartman has never, ever, ever, and neither has truthfully
16         neither did anyone else we have ever talked to say that
17         Spirko was not involved.  Spirko is -- as far as I'm
18         concerned and everyone else is concerned, Spirko was, had
19         involvement in this.  No, he was never said anything about
20         Spirko not being in this.
21   Q:    And I think I asked this before, but when you were having
22         these phone conversations with Mr. Hartman, were you taking
23         some notes from what was being told?
24   A:    Not really what you would say writing down notes.  The only
25         thing it was spelling.  That's what I wrote down.  Then
0025
 1         Clarence and I would discuss it afterward and I'd say, "My
 2         God, do you believe this for the book?"  And I would get
 3         out my computer and away I would go again on that computer
 4         to write things down to send to Theo for the book.
 5   Q:    So you were still sending him things as you were talking on
 6         the phone?
 7   A:    Absolutely, absolutely.
 8   Q:    And were you also recording the thoughts and concerns of
 9         Clarence Mottinger?
10   A:    Oh, yes, yes, yes.
11   Q:    And generally, what can you remember?  What were those at
12         this time?
13   A:    At this time Clarence is absolutely enlightened.  He is
14         just, "We did it, Connie.  We did it.  We finally found
15         them all.  I mean, we did it."  He was ecstatic, and he was
16         excited.  And now he says, "Now we have got to make sure
17         everybody else knows about it, and we got to go after this.
18         We have to."  And he says, "We are going to get all the
19         details first."  He said, "I want to talk to Paul, get
20         every one of the details."  Then he said, "We are going
21         101 percent gung-ho for this."  And I said, "Okay."
22   Q:    So what did you all do?
23   A:    As I said, Clarence's health went downhill very fast.  He
24         had cancer.  And this cancer took him within ten months'
25         time from the time we first learned he had it.  It took him
0026
 1         very, very fast.  And he asked me, he begged me, he pleaded
 2         with me, "Don't stop on this book.  Get the book done for
 3         Janie and I.  And talk to Paul and get all that's involved.
 4         No matter what you do, don't stop until you get them all."
 5              I tried to fulfill this.  At the time my husband
 6         passed on, there is no way I could do much of anything.  I
 7         just -- I just couldn't function correctly, which means I
 8         couldn't concentrate correctly, which means I wouldn't do a
 9         good job.  Didn't do that.
10              What I did is I spent my time in pouring into the
11         computer all my thoughts, everything that I was gone
12         through in the loss of my husband in saying, my God, if
13         this is how he felt when he lost his love, Betty Jane, what
14         this man had to be going through.  And I was releasing my
15         thoughts and my emotions and my grief through my writing in
16         the computer of my thoughts and grief.  Then I decided I
17         have got to get ahold of Paul Hartman.  I have to finish
18         this for Clarence.  I have to.
19              So I contacted Paul, and I asked him, "Please.  Please
20         may I have an interview?  Please?"  And he agreed to this.
21         He said, "Where would you like to meet or what do you want
22         to do?"  And I said, "Well, you are at Mansfield.  You are
23         the one that is working.  I am not.  I will meet with you."
24         He said, "All right.  How do you want to set this up?"  And
25         I told him, "I would like to bring along Theo and Marlene
0027
 1         Bennett with me."  And he knew.  He knew -- Paul knew we
 2         were writing or that I was getting information and that
 3         Theo was writing the book.  Paul new this.
 4              So he agreed, yes, that's fine.  It took some time to
 5         get everything accomplished when he could get off work,
 6         when we could go, when Theo and Marlene could get there and
 7         so forth.  We did agree on the time and met in Mansfield,
 8         Ohio.  We met I believe it was at a Hampton Inn in
 9         Mansfield, Ohio.
10   Q:    Did you meet in just a regular room?
11   A:    Yes, Marlene had went ahead.  She is quite a little
12         go-getter when it comes to trips and finding things.  She
13         had gotten a room for us.  And she asked him if after work
14         he could please meet up with us for this interview.  He
15         said he would be more than happy to.  So it was in a normal
16         hotel room.  It had two double beds it in, a table, and we
17         had brought drinks in and everything for his comfort, and
18         we talked at this table.
19   Q:    Do you remember about what time of the day or evening it
20         was?
21   A:    All I can say is I think in my mind it was supposed to be
22         at one or one-thirty.  And I cannot remember which it
23         started at.
24   Q:    Do you remember Mr. Hartman coming and talking to you?
25   A:    Yes, he came right up to the room.  And he came into the
0028
 1         room.  We had a recorder sitting in the middle of the
 2         table.  We asked him if it was all right if we recorded
 3         this interview.  I did admit at that time that it was for
 4         the book purpose and that nothing would be mentioned until
 5         after we had permission to go ahead with the book.
 6              I had made a promise to Mr. Wille that nothing, we
 7         would not do this book, and the book would not come out and
 8         none of this would be present until Spirko had been
 9         executed or whatever because we knew that the case is what
10         you might call still open until he is executed.  So -- and
11         we told Hartman that.  And Hartman knew that.  He agreed to
12         this.  And he sat down at the table and he says, "Where do
13         you want me to start?"  And I said, "At the very beginning
14         when you got a phone call saying come."  And he did so.
15              MR. DUNN:  Off the record.
16              (A discussion was held off the record.)
17              MR. DUNN:  Just if you could, what was the last
18         question.
19              (The previous question was read by the reporter.)
20   BY MR. DUNN:
21   Q:    You spoke generally about when you met with Mr. Hartman.
22         I'm wondering if you can more specifically remember about
23         what time of year it was.
24   A:    Well, I tell you what.  I believe it was the end of April
25         or around the first of May.  And that night when we went to
0029
 1         the restaurant, Theo and us, I believe Theo's birthday was
 2         going to be the next day or the day after.  So if you can
 3         figure out if you know when Theo's birthday is, you will
 4         know the exact date we met with Mr. Hartman.
 5   Q:    Now, before you said that you had spoken -- and do you
 6         remember what year it was?  How soon after Mr. Mottinger's
 7         death as far as number of months about?
 8   A:    It was in 2004 because I know it was -- it took me about
 9         six months or so before I got my feet under me to call
10         somebody.
11   Q:    Now, before you said that you had spoken with Mr. Wille and
12         had promised him the information about this interview would
13         not come out until after Mr. Spirko's death --
14   A:    I did not say that, sir.  What I said was I promised Mr.
15         Wille that we would not publish this book, nor would we
16         finish writing this book, nor do anything about this book
17         until after Spirko was executed or whatever because the
18         book wouldn't be finished anyways, and it could jeopardize
19         whatever was going on at the time.  No, I did not promise
20         him anything back but the interview.  What I promised him
21         was that the book would not go out, nothing about the book.
22   Q:    You said it might jeopardize what was going on at the time;
23         is that correct?
24   A:    Yes.
25   Q:    Was that your conclusion or was that someone else's
0030
 1         conclusion?
 2   A:    That was about everybody we talked to's conclusion.  They
 3         kept saying:  You have got Spirko.  Don't jeopardize
 4         anything to get -- to lose Spirko.  I know you want the
 5         rest of these people, but let's not jeopardize losing
 6         Spirko and getting the rest of the people.
 7   Q:    Were they explaining to you why your activity might
 8         jeopardize Spirko?
 9              MR. PRICHARD:  Could you be clear who "they" is?
10   BY MR. DUNN:
11   Q:    If anybody what was explaining to you why that person
12         thought that your activity might jeopardize Spirko, tell
13         how that was, if anybody told.
14   A:    Well, at the time I talked to Ralph Eversole, he said, "We
15         have got Spirko.  Don't mess in this."
16   Q:    Let me stop you.  And did he explain how what you were
17         doing might jeopardize Spirko, Mr. Eversole?
18   A:    No, he didn't.  No, he didn't.  He just -- we said why?
19         What's the big deal here?  I remember we did ask that.  And
20         Ralph says because we have really got him.  We have really
21         got Spirko.  Spirko is the one.  And until we are
22         absolutely positive about someone else, don't be bringing
23         anybody in.  And I said, "Oh, I understand" because, see,
24         we were finding out information.  We had nothing positive
25         that we could put in our hands, that we could put in our
0031
 1         hands and say, yes, this is the guy absolutely, positively
 2         without a doubt, and here we will present you with black
 3         and white proof this is it.  We couldn't do that.  So
 4         everybody was saying it's been proven in black and white
 5         that Spirko did it.  So until you can prove that someone
 6         else did it, don't be doing this.
 7   Q:    Other than Mr. Eversole, who was pressing that concern to
 8         you?
 9   A:    Yes, Ralph.
10   Q:    Anyone else?
11   A:    I did mention it to Mr. Wille.  And he expressed to me
12         that, yes, we had Spirko.  Yes, he believes that Spirko
13         honestly did it.  There was nothing that he said that told
14         him that Spirko didn't do it.  He would tell me every time
15         I called him -- he answered every phone call that I put in
16         to him, every one.  He would answer them the day I called.
17         Right away.  He would answer my questions and he kept
18         always telling me, "Yes, things are going well.  Everything
19         is all right.  Spirko is going to go down."  So, yes, I
20         knew I had nothing in black and white, but I did mention it
21         to Mr. Wille.
22   Q:    Did he express a concern that your activity would
23         jeopardize Spirko?
24   A:    No, the only thing he asked and we promised him was that
25         the book would not come out until everything was finished.
0032
 1   Q:    And he asked you to make sure it didn't come out until
 2         everything was finished.  Is that accurate?
 3   A:    To be real truthful with you, I don't know if he asked or
 4         we promised, getting the feeling that it was that way.  I
 5         don't know which way it actually went that day.  I know
 6         that we told him about the book and everything the day that
 7         we brought to his office the petition with all the names.
 8         And that's when this was discussed in person.  Other than
 9         that, I have not seen Mr. Wille.  I have talked to him
10         numerous times over the phone.  But the last time I saw him
11         in person and Clarence saw him in person was when we
12         brought the petition to him.
13   Q:    If you can remember other than Mr. Eversole whether there
14         was anybody else who expressed to you a concern that what
15         you were doing was going to jeopardize Mr. Spirko?
16   A:    Mr. Charles Kennedy.
17   Q:    And what did he express to you in that area?
18   A:    You are jumping ahead in this because this was after the
19         interview with Paul Hartman.  Paul had told me this info.
20         I had stayed over that night and I got on my computer and I
21         wrote everything I could think of that Paul said.  And I
22         wrote and I wrote and I wrote off of my notes.  The very
23         next morning I got up and I traveled to Van Wert instead of
24         coming home.  I traveled to Van Wert, Ohio.  I stopped in
25         at Mr. Kiester's office.  Steven Kiester was not in his
0033
 1         office.  He had a receptionist there.  I don't know her
 2         name.  She was elderly.  His other receptionist is Kim
 3         Clouse.  But it wasn't her.  It was another one.  And she
 4         said he was out of his office.  And she looked at me and
 5         she said, "That's been so many, many, many years ago.  You
 6         can't dig things up now."  That's what she said from his
 7         office.  I did not get to talk to Mr. Kiester at all.
 8              I went from Mr. Kiester's office to Charles Kennedy's
 9         office.  Charles came in while I was there.  And I said,
10         "Charlie, I heard that it's Effie Rader and James Clark
11         Kelley.  Gibson wasn't involved."  And I told Charlie, I
12         said, "Charlie, you know Clarence."  Him and Clarence were
13         buddies.  "You know Clarence would not and would hate for
14         someone to go down for something they didn't do and
15         somebody walk who did it.  Gibson is absolutely innocent.
16         Charlie, you have to get Gibson off, and we got to go after
17         James Clark Kelley."
18              And he said, "How do you know all this?"  And I
19         proceeded in telling him I just got through talking, had an
20         interview with Hartman, Paul Hartman.
21              And he said "What exactly did he tell you?"  And I
22         went in detail as much as possible telling Charlie what he
23         told me.
24              Charlie told me, "Connie, you are barking up a bad
25         tree."  He says, "It has been too many years.  People have
0034
 1         forgotten the true details.  The people that were alive
 2         then, some have died.  Some have moved away."  This has
 3         been a big thing in the community, and everybody has told
 4         stories until everything has gotten twisted, and the state
 5         spent a lot of money on this.  And I guarantee you the
 6         state will not want to do this again."
 7   Q:    What is "do this again?"  What did he mean by that?
 8   A:    I don't know.  Those are his words, "do this again."  What
 9         I thought was bring other people that maybe was involved,
10         bring them back and have them convicted or whatever.
11         That's what I thought he meant.  I do not know if that's
12         what he meant.  That was his words.  That's what I took
13         from his words.
14   Q:    And I think you said this was the day after you met with
15         Mr. Hartman, right?
16   A:    Absolutely, the day immediately and then --
17   Q:    Let me stop you, Mrs. Mottinger.  I want to ask you one
18         more question about your discussion with Mr. Kennedy.
19   A:    Okay.
20   Q:    Did he tell you anything about Mr. Gibson?  You came and
21         told him --
22   A:    No, he did not.  I told him I had just heard this and, "Do
23         you know anything about Mr. Gibson, Delaney Gibson?  Is he
24         out?  Is he still in?  What's going on?"  Charles was busy
25         that day and more or less made me feel like I was in the
0035
 1         way.  I left.
 2   Q:    So you had told him Gibson wasn't involved?
 3   A:    I told him Paul Hartman said absolutely positive Gibson
 4         wasn't involved at all.
 5   Q:    How did he react then, Mr. Kennedy?
 6   A:    You got to know Mr. Kennedy.  Mr. Kennedy does not have
 7         emotions.  I cannot read Mr. Kennedy.  I know he is a drill
 8         sergeant or whatever he is in the service.  I had no
 9         reaction.  Or I felt like there was no reaction.  The only
10         reaction I got was I felt he was like upset with me to
11         think that it could all be brought forward again and to
12         think that we could go after someone else.  He left me with
13         a feeling that he was upset with me.
14   Q:    Did he tell you anything with respect to his intentions
15         concerning Mr. Delaney Gibson?
16   A:    No, he did not.  But the thing of it is it was about a week
17         after I was there.  All at once some -- I believe Mr. Wille
18         or it was out in the paper that Delaney Gibson was taken
19         off.
20   Q:    Taken off.  What do you mean by "taken off"?
21   A:    Taken away from this case.  It was about a week after that.
22              I didn't know whether he had followed up on something
23         I had said.  I didn't know if he had gotten ahold of
24         Hartman.  Didn't know what happened.  I had no idea what
25         caused this, but I was delighted that the guy was not going
0036
 1         to be held for something he didn't do.
 2   Q:    Have you learned since how it happened?
 3   A:    How what happened, sir?
 4   Q:    How they took Delaney Gibson off the case in your words.
 5   A:    No, all I know is Delaney is -- all I know is he isn't any
 6         more -- I called Mr. Wille and asked him some questions and
 7         but mostly my question was where are we with Spirko now?
 8         Delaney is no longer involved now.  Where do we go?  What
 9         is going to happened?  That's the kind of questions I asked
10         him.  I didn't get involved in why he was no longer there.
11   Q:    I want to go back if we can because we did kind of skip
12         ahead to your meeting with Mr. Hartman.
13   A:    Yes.
14   Q:    I think you said the Hampton Inn?
15   A:    I believe it was the Hampton Inn.  Yes, I do.
16              MR. HILL:  Off the record.
17              (A recess was taken.)
18                                -  -  -
19   BY MR. DUNN:
20   Q:    Back on the record.
21              I just want to go back because I don't know if we have
22         this exactly clear.  I don't know how well you remember.
23         But if you can remember, you said you did have a
24         conversation with Mr. Wille.  I believe you said you
25         wouldn't publish the book until after everything was
0037
 1         finished with Mr. Spirko.  Do I have that about right, the
 2         substance of that conversation?
 3   A:    Yes, I promise Mr. Wille that nothing -- right.  Nothing.
 4         The book wouldn't be published.  Nobody would know anything
 5         about it.  The book would be a total, total, total off
 6         every record in the world until Spirko was executed.
 7   Q:    Do you remember about when you had that conversation with
 8         Mr. Wille, whether before or after your meeting with Mr.
 9         Hartman or when?
10   A:    I had this conversation with Mr. Wille when I brought him
11         the petition with all the names on it.
12   Q:    That was before you met with Mr. Hartman right?
13   A:    Yes, yes.
14   Q:    Mr. Mottinger was still alive?
15   A:    Yes, yes.
16   Q:    Let's go back to your meeting with Mr. Hartman.
17   A:    Okay.
18   Q:    Do you remember about how long you met with him?
19   A:    Oh, my, if my memory serves me right, he came there
20         approximately one o'clock, one-thirty, something like that.
21         And I know it was a good about five-thirty, six o'clock
22         because we asked him if he wanted to go out to dinner with
23         us afterwards.  He said no.  He would have to get home.  So
24         it was -- and I know after we talked with him, we got
25         around to go out to eat.  So I know it was well into the
0038
 1         dinnertime.
 2   Q:    There has been some discussion about tape recordings that
 3         might have been made at that meeting?
 4   A:    They were made at that meeting.
 5   Q:    Police describe how you or someone else taped the meeting
 6         with Mr. Hartman?
 7   A:    Theo Bennett brought his machine.  I furnished the tapes.
 8         They were cassette tapes.  Those little mini cassette
 9         tapes, mini.  That's what they were done on.  And we sat
10         around the table and Theo was responsible for the taping
11         because it was his machine.  I did not know how to work it.
12         I'm not mechanically inclined.  And he took care of every
13         bit of the taping of these, this interview with Mr.
14         Hartman.
15   Q:    Do you remember about how many tapes were used?
16   A:    Yes, I do.  It was front and back of I know for sure two
17         tapes.  And the reason I know that is I told Theo Bennett
18         that I would take one tape home and I would transcribe it
19         the best I could.  And he was to take the other one and
20         have it transcribed the best he could so it would be on
21         black and white paper, and he did so.  I took with me that
22         night one of the tapes.
23   Q:    And did you have a machine at home that could replay the
24         tape?
25   A:    I have a -- I went out and got it.  No, I did not have one,
0039
 1         but I went out and got one, a small cassette tape.  And
 2         what I did is I have a laptop.  I sat with that laptop on
 3         my lap, and I played like one sentence or two on it, from
 4         the tape, and then I typed it down.  Then I would take the
 5         tape back, and I want to make sure because I know that when
 6         you write a book and when you are repeating anything that
 7         someone says, it better be absolutely like they say or they
 8         can sue the pants off of you.
 9              So anyways, I went back then on the recording and I
10         would listen again and then check on what I had wrote to
11         make sure it was correct.
12              It took me a good week, I would say, to get this tape
13         done.  And I worked on it as hard, as many hours as I
14         possibly could.  But like I said, I'm not mechanically
15         inclined, and this took me a very, very long time.  I saved
16         it on my computer every time I had stopped.  I saved it on
17         my computer, scared to death the next day I turned it on
18         that it wouldn't be there, but it was.  It was there.
19              After I did so, I called Theo and said, "I got it
20         done, Theo.  I got it done.  I'm going to send it to you in
21         the mail."  And he said, "What all are you sending me?  We
22         got to be careful it gets to me."  And I said, "Theo, I'm
23         sending you the tape back so you can check the tape with
24         what I have wrote so you can make sure everything is
25         accurate."
0040
 1              And I said, "I'm sending it to you.  I'm going to
 2         download it on to a disk and I'm sending it to you on a
 3         CD-ROM disk and my daughter is going to help me get it off
 4         of my typewriter or off my computer to send it to you."  He
 5         said, "Okay."
 6              I went out and got these bubble manilla envelops for
 7         disks, and I put it in a hard case, and it was sent along
 8         with the tape back to Theo Bennett.
 9   Q:    Did Mr. Bennett ever let you know when he had received it?
10   A:    Yes, I called him.  I called him.  He -- I called him and
11         said, "Theo, did you receive it?"  And he said, "Connie,
12         don't you ever read your e-mail?"  And I said, "I very
13         seldom do read e-mail.  I don't work with my computer very
14         well."  And he had received it.
15              What I have got here with me that I have brought out
16         is a CD-ROM.  This is a blank one.  This is a brand new one
17         of the same thing I sent Theo Bennett.
18   Q:    And just why don't we -- for the record, does it say
19         Memorex CD-R on it?  Is that what that says?  Memorex CD-R?
20   A:    Yes.
21   Q:    Does it say 700 megabits?
22   A:    Yes, 80 minutes, F2X multi speed.
23   Q:    All right.  Thank you.
24   A:    That is from the same case that I had bought when I sent
25         him his.
0041
 1   Q:    So just to be clear, is it accurate to say that Theo
 2         Bennett told you he had received the CD and the tape?
 3   A:    Yes, he did.
 4   Q:    Now, you said that was one of two tapes; is that correct?
 5   A:    Yes, I only had one of the two tapes.  Theo had the other
 6         tape.  He was going to have -- I believe the way I
 7         understood, he was going to have somebody transcribe it for
 8         him.  I don't think Theo was going to do it.
 9   Q:    Did he ever tell you whether he did have somebody
10         transcribe the tape?
11   A:    No, he did not.  He did not say.  I asked how he was coming
12         with the tape.  He said, "Really good."  He said, "Thank
13         you for what you did."  He was very appreciative.  I asked
14         how him the book was coming.  He said it was going very
15         slow.  He was going over the information I had sent him.
16         He didn't say any more about it.
17   Q:    Did he ever tell you whether or not he had listened to the
18         tape you had sent to him and compared it to the transcript
19         you prepared?
20   A:    All he said was, "You did a good job.  I listened to it.
21         And you did a good job."  That's all he said.  He did say
22         he was having trouble.  Something about the way my computer
23         downloaded it and it went on and then he had to put it on
24         his computer.  He did say he had a little bit of trouble.
25         He said, "I have a very funky computer."  It was hard for
0042
 1         him to switch.  But he did get it.  He told me absolutely,
 2         positively he did get it and it did go on his computer
 3         finally.
 4   Q:    So the trouble was with the transcript you prepared and
 5         sent him on CD.  Is that what he was telling you?
 6   A:    Yeah, that's what he was telling me because it just didn't
 7         want to load in his quite like he wanted to.  But he did
 8         get it done and he said it did have -- he had every bit of
 9         it stored in his computer.
10   Q:    Did he ever tell you he had any trouble listening to the
11         tape you sent him?
12   A:    No, he did not.  He said it worked quite well.  He said he
13         had trouble with the tape that he had.  I said, "Oh, my
14         gosh, Theo.  What happened?"  He said I don't know if it
15         got a wrinkle in, a crease in the tape.  I don't know what
16         happened.  But he said mine is not real good.  I'm going to
17         have to try to put it together.  So he had trouble with the
18         tape he had.  Not with the tape I had.
19   Q:    Did he tell you the -- did he ever tell you anything more
20         about what he had done with the tape he had?
21   A:    Well, he told me he was going to try to get it spliced or
22         whatever that is.  I don't know.  He said he was going to
23         try to get it put back together.
24   Q:    When did he tell you this?  Do you remember?
25   A:    Yeah, after I sent my tape.  I asked him how he was coming
0043
 1         with his tape.  And he said he would have to get his tape
 2         taken care of before he did anything.
 3   Q:    Let me go back.  You said it took you almost a week to
 4         transcribe your tape.  Is that accurate?
 5   A:    Yes.
 6   Q:    When did you start relative to when you interviewed Mr.
 7         Hartman?  How long after your interview with him did you go
 8         to that transcription work?
 9   A:    Immediately, immediately.  Because I'm a person that I feel
10         like I have to write everything down.  I'm just that kind
11         of a person.  I just always write everything down.  And I
12         wanted to make sure I had everything fresh in my mind.  I
13         knew how important this was that you don't dare move things
14         around and so forth.  I did it immediately.
15   Q:    You did it at your home, though?
16   A:    Yes, I did.  I did it downstairs in my home.
17   Q:    Did you ever make a copy of the tape that you had?
18   A:    What I did is I thought it was stored in my computer.  I
19         thought it was stored like all the rest was stored in my
20         computer.  And no, I did not.  What I did is it was in my
21         computer.  So why would I need anything else?  So I did not
22         have anything else.  And I downloaded it.  And my problem
23         is I can't find it.  I do not know how to work my computer.
24         I don't know how to find it.  And you are more than
25         willing, all of you here, to have my computer.  Go through.
0044
 1         If you can find it, more power to you.  You are more than
 2         welcome to it.
 3   Q:    I think you are referring to the computer file that has
 4         that typed transcript, right?
 5   A:    You can have always all the transcripts.  All the
 6         interviews, all the transcripts, the transcript of Paul
 7         Hartman, all of it is in that computer if you want it.
 8         Take the computer.
 9   Q:    All right.  We might take you up on that.
10   A:    All right.
11   Q:    Mrs. Mottinger, thank you very much.  The actual cassette
12         tape, though, did you ever have that copied?
13   A:    No, didn't have it copied.  I sent that right back to Theo
14         because I wanted him to -- you know what?  I was really
15         afraid if I tampered with that tape much more because I
16         kept backing it up and going forward, back it up and going
17         forward.  I was terrified I would lose it or do something
18         to that tape.  So I just hurriedly, as soon as I got done
19         with it, I sent it back to Theo Bennett.  I do not have
20         nothing.
21              (A document was marked as Exhibit 1 by the reporter.)
22   BY MR. DUNN:
23   Q:    The reporter has handed you what she has marked Exhibit 1
24         for your deposition.  Ignoring the case number line at the
25         top, which I'll represent to you is something that I think
0045
 1         has been added to this document recently, do you recognize
 2         this document?
 3              What I would like to ask you at this time, when you
 4         received this document, did it have "Interview with Paul
 5         Hartman" at the top, "Transcribed by Connie Mottinger"?
 6         Those words were on the document when we received it.
 7   A:    That is not my document then.  And let me tell you why.  At
 8         the top of mine and you will have to find it in my
 9         computer, I have "Tape interview with Paul Hartman at
10         Mansfield, Ohio."  And then the next line was the date of
11         the interview and I did not have my name on what I sent to
12         Theo Bennett.
13   Q:    And thank you for that.
14              What about if you start looking where it says "Paul:"
15         and the word "the realities."
16   A:    Now that, yes, I will agree that sounds like -- yes, I have
17         read this and this is what I have transcribed, yes.
18   Q:    The document that is now in front of you marked as
19         Exhibit 1, have you seen that document before today?
20   A:    Yes, I have.
21   Q:    And have you read it before today?
22   A:    Yes, I have.
23   Q:    And other than the difference in the first couple of lines
24         that you just described, do you believe that this document
25         is the transcription that you made of the tape of the
0046
 1         interview you had with Mr. Hartman?
 2   A:    I believe that this is part of what I had with Mr. Hartman.
 3   Q:    Look at the very last two pages, if you would.
 4   A:    Yes.
 5   Q:    My question is when you look at those, can you tell me
 6         which part of that interview this is a transcript of?
 7         Whether it's the beginning, middle or the end or something
 8         else?
 9   A:    This is toward the end of the interview.
10   Q:    Now, when you look at the beginning of the document --
11   A:    Yes.
12   Q:    -- does this document represent everything that you
13         transcribed or do you remember transcribing more material
14         than is reflected in this document?
15   A:    To be real truthful, I absolutely think that there was
16         more, but I'm not sure.
17   Q:    You think there was more than you might have transcribed?
18   A:    Yes, I just could not think it started with where it's at
19         right here.  I honestly do not think it was there.
20   Q:    Do you remember when you did the transcription whether you
21         had it single spaced or double spaced?
22   A:    Single spaced.
23   Q:    Just like it is here?
24   A:    Just like it is here.  I can see where -- I don't know how
25         to do this for you.  I can see where it's been over like
0047
 1         this and over like this.  You know what I mean?  And I had
 2         it absolutely straight.
 3   Q:    Some of the formatting is different?
 4   A:    Yes, the formatting is different because I had it
 5         absolutely straight.  But other than that, yes, this is
 6         what I did.
 7   Q:    Do you remember when you finished what you had transcribed
 8         how many pages the transcription took up in your computer?
 9   A:    I want to say 15 to 17, but I'm not sure.  I would like to
10         say that.
11   Q:    This document is just over ten pages; is that correct?
12   A:    Yes.
13   Q:    Did you ever see when you did your transcription a printout
14         that came out of the printer of the work that you had done
15         transcribing the tape of the interview of Mr. Hartman?
16   A:    No, I put it on a CD-ROM, and no, I did not.
17              MR. DUNN:  I would like to take a little break if
18         that's okay.
19              MR. HILL:  Why don't we take three minutes to stretch.
20              (A recess was taken.)
21                                 -  -  -
22   BY MR. DUNN:
23   Q:    I want to ask you a little bit more about what has been
24         marked Exhibit Number 1.
25   A:    Okay.
0048
 1   Q:    Mrs. Mottinger, you said you spent -- I think you said you
 2         spent a week transcribing the tape?
 3   A:    At least.  You have got to understand that there is a
 4         family and there is a stock farm I'm taking care of.  And
 5         every moment I could, I went back to this.  But like I
 6         said, I'm very poor at this.  And it took me that long to
 7         do it.
 8   Q:    I think you said after you would type some, you would go
 9         back and check; is that right?
10   A:    Yes, I would.  I would go back and I would listen exactly
11         what was said to make sure that I had it down correctly.
12   Q:    I just want to understand.  How satisfied were you at the
13         end with respect to the question of how accurate your
14         transcript is?
15   A:    101 percent.
16   Q:    When you were interviewing Mr. Hartman, did you take any
17         handwritten notes?
18   A:    Yes, I did.  What I did is I think Marlene was taking some
19         handwritten notes.  Theo was extremely busy with the
20         recorder, and I was also taking handwritten notes as he
21         spoke.
22   Q:    And do you have those handwritten notes still?
23   A:    No, I do not because I don't spell well.  I had wrote
24         around the edge.  I had even turned the paper upside down.
25         I made a mess out of my own notes.  A terrible mess.  So
0049
 1         what I had done is I took each and every one, and I had put
 2         them on the computer.  And as I did that, I would mark that
 3         off to make sure I did not miss a one and I put it on the
 4         computer.
 5   Q:    And what did you then do with the thing, with the file that
 6         you put on the computer of those notes?
 7   A:    See, I was there and I did it the same night.  I had my
 8         computer with me when I went to do Hartman.
 9   Q:    So you --
10   A:    So I did it that very night and I destroyed those papers
11         that I wrote around the edges and everything.  I destroyed
12         that.  And I took my notes I had on my computer.  I had it
13         under "save."  And I took it home.
14   Q:    After you took it home, what did you do with it, if
15         anything?
16   A:    Nothing.  What I had was like highlights, what I considered
17         to be the highlights of the entire interview.  I kept that
18         separate.  And that was a whole separate page, and then I
19         started in going through the recording and taping the
20         transcript.
21   Q:    Let me be clear, this highlights document you referred to,
22         is that the document you typed up the same night after you
23         met with Mr. Hartman?
24   A:    Yes, it is.
25   Q:    Do you remember how long that document was?
0050
 1   A:    It's only one page.  I would suggest it's one page, single
 2         lined.  It's not much at all.  It was just the highlights
 3         that I thought was extremely important for me to remember.
 4   Q:    I'm going to ask the reporter to mark what we will use as
 5         the next exhibit of your deposition.
 6              (A document was marked as Exhibit 2 by the reporter.)
 7   BY MR. DUNN:
 8   Q:    The document that has been placed in front of you, Mrs.
 9         Mottinger, has been marked as Exhibit 2.  Have you seen
10         this document before?  And I want to give you a chance to
11         look at every page, if you would.
12   A:    Yes.
13   Q:    And what is this document?
14   A:    This document is an affidavit that I had given you, Mr.
15         Dunn, and Mr. Hill, at your office.
16   Q:    And look at the third page of the document, please.
17   A:    Yes.
18   Q:    What is the date there?
19   A:    2/25/05.
20   Q:    If you will, is that the date that you gave this affidavit?
21   A:    Absolutely.
22   Q:    And look at the last page of the document, please.  Do you
23         recognize that?
24   A:    Yes, I do.
25   Q:    What is that?
0051
 1   A:    That is the highlights of the interview with Paul Hartman
 2         of April of 2000.  Was it April?  Then, yes, this is my --
 3         this is what I had typed out that night after the interview
 4         with Mr. Hartman.
 5   Q:    And I want to be clear.  Is this the document that you
 6         typed using the notes that you took during the interview of
 7         Mr. Hartman?
 8   A:    Yes, it is.
 9   Q:    And again, it's a document you typed immediately after you
10         met with Mr. Hartman?
11   A:    Yes, it is.
12   Q:    The handwriting is yours on the document.  Do you recognize
13         that?
14   A:    That's mine.
15   Q:    Does that include the Exhibit A and the additional e and
16         the cross-out and the additional s near the bottom of the
17         document?
18   A:    Yes, it.
19   Q:    Those are all your markings?
20   A:    Yes, it is.
21   Q:    Do you believe this document, Exhibit A, "Highlights of
22         Interview with Paul Hartman" is an accurate transcription
23         of the notes that you took during your interview with Mr.
24         Hartman?
25   A:    Oh, yes, because what I did is I wrote it just exactly like
0052
 1         I had wrote it.  Exactly.  Yes.  That's hows come none of
 2         it is really in sequence.  It is just like here is a
 3         statement.  There is another statement.  There is another
 4         statement.  You know what I mean?  Yes.  Exactly.  Right
 5         from my notes.
 6   Q:    I'm going to ask you about the first part of your notes.
 7   A:    Okay.
 8   Q:    If you could read those first two lines just to yourself.
 9   A:    Okay.
10   Q:    Do you remember if that information was the information
11         that was on the tape you transcribed or do you not
12         remember?
13   A:    No, I would say those two things were not on what I
14         transcribed, no.  I would say the third one is.
15   Q:    Is the third one the 16 interviews with Spirko?
16   A:    Yes.
17   Q:    So your recollection is that the tape that you hadn't
18         transcribed included that information?
19   A:    Yes.
20   Q:    Is it your recollection that the tape you hadn't
21         transcribed included all the information below that?  And
22         if you can't recall, just please say you can't recall.
23   A:    No, I'm pretty sure it did.
24   Q:    I want to go back now and you told us about how you met
25         with Mr. Hartman?
0053
 1   A:    Yes.
 2   Q:    And then I think you said after that you went to Van Wert,
 3         correct?
 4   A:    Yes.
 5   Q:    And you have told us how you tried to meet with Mr.
 6         Kiester?
 7   A:    Correct.
 8   Q:    And you were unable to meet with him, correct?
 9   A:    Correct.
10   Q:    And you told us you did meet with Mr. Kennedy?
11   A:    Correct.
12   Q:    And I just want to make sure you have told us in substance
13         your conversation with Mr. Kennedy that day.  Have you?
14   A:    Yes, I have.
15   Q:    That day did you meet with anybody else before you went
16         back home?
17   A:    Yes.
18   Q:    To Indiana concerning this case?
19   A:    Yes, I did.
20   Q:    And who did you meet with?
21   A:    Ralph Eversole.
22   Q:    And let me just ask, these meetings when you were in Van
23         Wert, were you alone or with anyone else?
24   A:    I was totally alone.  Theo and Marlene had went back to
25         their home and I was on my way home.
0054
 1   Q:    Mr. Kiester and Mr. Kennedy, I assume they are attorneys in
 2         Van Wert?
 3   A:    Yes, they are.
 4   Q:    And you went to try to meet with them or met with them as
 5         the case may be at their offices?
 6   A:    Yes, I did.
 7   Q:    At this time, if you know, what was Mr. Eversole's job in
 8         Van Wert?
 9   A:    He has been with the sheriff's department since I think
10         there was one.  He has been an exceptionally good friend of
11         the family.  He is a head detective, I believe it to be.
12         And I went in and asked if I could talk to Ralph.  Ralph
13         was at the time they said out on the road.  I said will he
14         be back soon?  They said, "Yes, let's give him a call"
15         because they know me there.  They knew who I was.
16              Ralph came right in, and I met with Ralph in the
17         hallway at the Van Wert's Sheriff's Department.  And I
18         said, "Ralph, please help.  I heard some news.  Nobody is
19         helping me.  Please help me, Ralph."  And I literally
20         begged Ralph.  And he says, "What do you want?"  And I
21         said, "I want to find out about Effie Rader and James Clark
22         Kelley.  He says, "I cannot do that for you."
23   Q:    Let me stop you.  Was this the first you had told Mr.
24         Eversole about James Clark Kelley?
25   A:    Yes, it is.  Yes, it is.
0055
 1   Q:    And when you said that to him, did it appear to you, if you
 2         can judge, whether it was the first time he had heard of
 3         James Clark Kelley and Effie Rader?
 4   A:    Yes, he acted totally surprised.  He says, "Where are you
 5         getting this stuff from?  Why do you want this?  Why are
 6         you so upset over this?"  And I explained to him I just
 7         talked to Paul Hartman, and Paul said -- and I explained to
 8         him in detail what Paul had just told me about Effie Rader
 9         and James Clark Kelley, and I wanted to know where they are
10         at.  "We have got to get them, Ralph.  We have got to get
11         them, and you are the authority.  Can't you help me out?"
12              And he said, "I can't do that."  I said, "Okay."  He
13         says, "Connie, let me just think about it."  I know that
14         was his way of dismissing me.  So I left.  And I returned
15         home here in Indiana the very next morning.  I called
16         immediately Mr. Wille -- Wille.  I'm sorry.  I called Mr.
17         Wille over the phone, and I told his secretary, "It's
18         important.  I have to talk to him."  And she said, "By all
19         means," and "Very well."  He talked to me.  And I said, "I
20         have information."  And he says, "what kind of information
21         do you have?"  And I told him about a James Clark Kelley
22         and Effie Rader.  I had got received it from Paul Hartman.
23         He said -- I said, "Do you know Paul Hartman?"  And he
24         said, "Yes, I do know him or I have heard of the name."
25         And I said, "Okay.  Can you help me out?  Can we get them
0056
 1         all?"  And he said, "I will get back with you."
 2              I waited a while.  I ended up calling him back and I
 3         asked him if he had came up with anything.  Mr. Wille said
 4         that, "We have our own investigators here, and I will try
 5         to get someone on to this immediately."
 6              Then I think he called me back to tell me how things
 7         were going with Spirko's case, and I asked him again if he
 8         had heard anything about Effie Rader or James Clark Kelley.
 9         And he says, "Our investigators here are with it."  And
10         this is all that I had heard.  And so after this had
11         happened, then some stuff came out in the paper by a
12         Painter and I was sent -- Theo Bennett told me to get on
13         the internet to try to draw this up to read this.  And I
14         did so.
15              I called, also called Mr. Painter and said, "What are
16         you doing having an interview with this guy?  You have got
17         to, you know, understand the victim's side of it, too.
18         What you have done is you had big pictures of Spirko all
19         over and a tiny picture of the victim, Betty Jane.  You are
20         making this all over Spirko, not Betty Jane."
21              And I will admit I was rather rude with Mr. Bob
22         Painter over this.  Also in his article at the end, he had
23         an article there that he had interviewed with a Bill
24         Latham.  And Bill Latham talked about Mr. Willier.  Now,
25         this man is who we thought from the beginning had done it.
0057
 1         This man had the last contact with him.  Clarence and I
 2         couldn't find Mr. Willier.  So I got on the phone and I
 3         called Bill Latham and I said, "Please help me find this
 4         guy.  I think he is part of all this, too.  If we could
 5         just get it in black and white and I can go to the
 6         authorities with this.  Please help me."
 7              I talked to him in great detail for a long length of
 8         time, this Mr. Latham.  He told me -- he asked me then, he
 9         said, "Have you ever had an interview with Paul Hartman?"
10         And I said yes, I had.  And he said, "Oh.  When did you do
11         this?"  And we discussed it.  We talked about it in length.
12              He asked me, he said, "Since you have talked with Paul
13         Hartman," he said, "I think a man I know will really listen
14         to you."  He said, "Will you call Mr. Dunn?"  And I said,
15         "Mr. Dunn is in the opposing corner," and he says, "But I
16         think this man will really listen and really help you out."
17              If it wasn't for Bill Latham putting the pressure to
18         call Mr. Dunn, I might not have done this.  So I called Mr.
19         Dunn and said I also had an interview with Paul Hartman and
20         then he said, "Yes, I have talked to Mr. Latham.  He told
21         me he spoke with you."  He said, "We would like to speak
22         with you."  And I says, "When would you like to speak?  My
23         daughter has had surgery and she can watch her own
24         children.  I can come any time this week."
25              And we proceeded in making arrangement for me to come
0058
 1         to Washington, DC.
 2   Q:    I appreciate that.
 3              And I'll ask you to go back a little.
 4   A:    Okay.
 5   Q:    A couple of things, at least.  Did you have any meetings
 6         with Mr. Hartman since the time you met with him in April
 7         of 2004?
 8   A:    Absolutely none.  No telephone calls, no speaking with him.
 9         Nothing at all.  I know Theo Bennett has.
10   Q:    So you haven't talked to Mr. Hartman, but Theo Bennett has?
11   A:    Theo Bennett told me that, he says now -- when I got home,
12         there was a message from Theo Bennett to call him
13         immediately.  It was an emergency.
14   Q:    When you got home from your Hartman interview?
15   A:    No, from talking with Mr. Dunn and Mr. Hill.
16   Q:    Okay.
17   A:    And I did so.
18   Q:    And what did Mr. Bennett tell you?
19   A:    Mr. Bennett was irate with me.  He was upset with me.  He
20         was beyond even thinking and talking intelligently.  He
21         said, "Now I'm going to have to call and talk to Mr.
22         Hartman and apologize for what you have done.  I'm going to
23         have to call Mr. Wille and have to apologize to him for
24         what you have done."  And he reprimanded me very highly for
25         what I had done.
0059
 1   Q:    What did he say you had done wrong?
 2   A:    I went to the other corner -- I said, "No, Theo.  I'm
 3         trying to get everybody like Clarence's last wishes was.
 4         I'm trying very hard.  I don't want this to end with just
 5         Spirko and they throw it in the corner and say, okay, this
 6         is done and the guys get to walk free.  What I really want
 7         is all of them.  That's all I'm trying to do.  That's it.
 8         Spirko is still a problem.  He was a part of this.  I
 9         solely believe that.  I just want them all."  And he said,
10         "But by doing this, you have had, have caused enough
11         trouble that Spirko may walk absolutely free."  I have
12         ruined everything.
13   Q:    Did he explain how that might happen?
14   A:    No.  Theo did not.  He was too busy explaining how terrible
15         he thought I was.
16   Q:    Now, you said that Theo had talked to Hartman?
17   A:    He said he was going to call Mr. Hartman and apologize and
18         Mr. Wille and apologize for what I had done.
19   Q:    Did Theo tell you how he knew that you were in Washington,
20         DC?
21   A:    Yeah, what I had done is the night before I had left, I had
22         called Theo, and he wasn't at home.  What I wanted was, I
23         wanted the tapes back.  I mean, I transcribed one of them.
24         I thought -- and I bought them.  But they aren't mine.
25         Theo informed me they wasn't mine.  I wanted to take the
0060
 1         tapes so it could be heard with Mr. Hartman's voice, in his
 2         voice, exactly what he said.  I wanted proof of what I was
 3         saying was 100 percent right.  I wanted it.
 4              But Theo was not there the night before.  So I
 5         proceeded in going to Washington during the day he had
 6         called my house to see what I wanted the night before.  Got
 7         ahold of my daughter and my daughter said, no, that Grandpa
 8         and Mom had left for Washington, DC.
 9              When I was in Washington, DC talking to Mr. Dunn and
10         Mr. Hill, I said, "Please let me call Theo.  I will get
11         those tapes for you immediately.  I know I can get them."
12         I got out an address book that had Theo's address and had
13         his phone number on it.  I asked for a telephone in Mr.
14         Dunn's office.  They gave me a telephone.  I called Theo.
15         Theo was not at home again.  And I begged and pleaded him
16         over the phone to please called me at Mr. Dunn's office
17         when he got in.  Hopefully I would still be there, and I
18         was going to have the tapes sent to Mr. Dunn and Mr. Hill
19         to prove what I had been saying.
20   Q:    Did you ever get to talk with Mr. Theo about the tape --
21         I'm sorry.  Did you ever get to speak with Theo Bennett
22         about the tapes?
23   A:    No, not at that time.  When I got home, I talked to him
24         about it.  I said I wanted the tapes.  Theo said, "No,
25         absolutely.  They are my property.  I am the author of this
0061
 1         book.  They are more my property.  You are not getting them
 2         in no way, shape, or form."
 3              First of all, through everything he did say all right,
 4         I'll send them to you.  Then he changed his mind over the
 5         phone.  Then he changed his mind again over the phone.
 6         "All right.  I'll send them and it's your responsibility
 7         and you take the punishment."
 8              Then again he said, "Well, maybe I won't."  And that's
 9         how that telephone call went.  He couldn't make up his
10         mind.  Two or three days later I called back Theo and I
11         said, "I didn't receive the tapes Theo" because I thought
12         maybe he did send them and they got lost.  And he said,
13         "And you will not receive them."
14   Q:    Did he tell you why you would not receive them?
15   A:    "If I want to destroy these tapes, I can destroy them.  If
16         I want to present them, I will present.  It's none of your
17         business."
18   Q:    At the end did he say anything about the quality of the
19         tapes?
20   A:    I knew positively, absolutely the one I had was an
21         excellent tape.  I know that.  I did not harm that tape.  I
22         knew he got it back excellent.  He did say, "You know, we
23         have only one good tape and the other one wasn't that
24         good."  And I said, "It doesn't matter.  I'm sure these
25         kind of attorneys have ways of getting what they need off
0062
 1         of a tape.  Theo, please help us."
 2   Q:    Did he ever tell you that he had discarded either or both
 3         of those tapes?
 4   A:    He threatened to.  He did not tell me he did.
 5   Q:    At that time did he ever tell you that he had spoken with
 6         Mr. Hartman about the tapes?
 7   A:    I cannot remember him saying that.  All I do remember is he
 8         said he was going to have to call Hartman and apologize to
 9         Hartman for my actions.
10   Q:    Do you know whether he has called Mr. Hartman?
11   A:    I don't know if he did or not.  I do know that -- I do know
12         that he contacted Mr. Wille.  I don't know if it was e-mail
13         or if he talked to him in person.  I am not sure.  But I do
14         know he did that because he told me he did.
15   Q:    What did he tell you, if anything, about the substance of
16         his conversation or communication with Mr. Wille?
17   A:    He just told me that he had contacted him and that since I
18         had traded corners in this, that he had to stick with Mr.
19         Wille.
20              I had not traded corners.  I'm trying to do what my
21         dead husband begged me to do.
22   Q:    And what is that again?
23   A:    That is to find all the guys, find them all.  Don't let it
24         stop with an execution of one man and let the others walk
25         totally, absolutely free.
0063
 1   Q:    I just want to get a sense as to how soon after these
 2         discussions you had with Mr. Theo Bennett occurred with
 3         respect to your trip to Washington.
 4   A:    Immediately, as soon as I got back from Washington.
 5         Immediately that night I talked with him.  And then it was
 6         about two, three days later I asked again, "Where is the
 7         tapes?"  I asked again at that time.  And I have not talked
 8         to Theo since.  We parted in not very good company, not
 9         very good attitude, and I have not spoken with Theo since.
10         In fact, to tell you the truth, I called Mr. Dunn and I
11         asked you, I think called you at home I was so upset
12         because Theo had literally attacked -- I felt attacked on
13         what he had said to me about it.  And I said, "My God, what
14         have I done?  And what can I do or what will I do."
15   Q:    So from your recollection, you said the last conversation
16         you had with Theo Bennett was soon after you returned from
17         Washington, DC?
18   A:    No later than three days afterwards.
19   Q:    And you haven't had any conversations with Mr. Hartman then
20         since then?
21   A:    I have had none at all.
22   Q:    Have you had any discussions with, since your meeting in
23         Washington with any of the people who were involved with
24         the investigation of this case?
25   A:    Since -- now, tell me begin.  Since when?
0064
 1   Q:    Since you came to Washington, DC?
 2   A:    No, absolutely none.
 3   Q:    I want to go back because you described some conversations
 4         that you had had with when you went to Van Wert soon after
 5         your interview with Mr. Hartman.  I assume that was either
 6         in April or May of 2004?
 7   A:    Yes.
 8   Q:    Then the next thing you told us about was how you read the
 9         articles of Mr. Bob Painter.
10   A:    Yes.
11   Q:    Which I think was in January of 2005.  Does that sound
12         about right?
13   A:    It could be, yes.  He had three times in the paper over
14         this.
15   Q:    Right.
16              In between the time that you had met with Mr. Hartman
17         and finished transcribing the tape and the time that you
18         read those articles in the "Cleveland Plain Dealer," did
19         you speak with or interview anyone who was involved in the
20         investigation of the case?
21   A:    No, I had -- when we heard James Clark Kelley and Effie
22         Rader, I went to those people immediately after Van Wert
23         like I just mentioned to you, and I have not talked with
24         anyone else about that.  I did call Mr. Wille as I said and
25         that was it.  No, I have not.
0065
 1   Q:    Just so I have it all clear, I want to understand for each
 2         person what you can remember in your meetings and
 3         discussion with them.  I think you said you and Mr.
 4         Mottinger met with Ralph Eversole?
 5   A:    Yes, we had, at Ralph's home.
 6   Q:    And then you met with Ralph Eversole later after you met
 7         with Mr. Hartman, right?
 8   A:    Yes.
 9   Q:    You met with him alone?
10   A:    Yes, alone at the sheriff's department in Van Wert.
11   Q:    Were there other meetings with Mr. Eversole that you can
12         remember at which you discussed this case?
13   A:    No, none at all.  You must remember, Clarence was a very
14         good friend of Ralph Eversole, and Ralph and Clarence was
15         hand in hand throughout this entire investigation together.
16         So Clarence had had many, many discussion with Ralph, but I
17         had not.
18   Q:    Had Clarence told you about his discussion with Ralph
19         Eversole?
20   A:    No, he just said that Ralph helped him out quite a great
21         deal during the murder of his wife.  He upheld Ralph and
22         all these gentlemen.  He upheld them very highly.
23   Q:    Now, you mentioned how you tried to see Mr. Kiester.
24   A:    Yes.
25   Q:    Have you ever met Mr. Kiester?
0066
 1   A:    No, I am pretty positive I wouldn't know him if I seen him,
 2         I doubt very much.
 3   Q:    Of course Mr. Mottinger has met Mr. Kiester?
 4   A:    I'm sure.  I'm sure.  I will not say that I know as to this
 5         thing, but I'm quite sure because he was at that time the
 6         head of the case.  He had to have.
 7   Q:    Since you and Mr. Mottinger decided you would work on this
 8         book, do you know if Mr. Mottinger has met with Mr. Kiester
 9         after you both decided to work on the book?
10   A:    No, he had not.
11   Q:    Now, you described a meeting you had with Mr. Kennedy soon
12         after you met with Mr. Hartman; is that right?
13   A:    Correct.
14   Q:    Was that the first time you met Mr. Kennedy?
15   A:    Absolutely not.
16   Q:    You met him before.
17   A:    Numerous, numerous times.
18   Q:    And had you discussed this case with Mr. Kennedy before?
19   A:    Every time that Clarence and Mr. Kennedy got together for
20         any reason at all, of course it was brought up.  What is
21         going to happen with Spirko next?  What is going on?  Yes,
22         I think it was brought up in about every conversation that
23         we had.
24   Q:    Do you recall ever discussing with Mr. Kennedy prior to
25         that interview that occurred after you saw Mr. Hartman, do
0067
 1         you recall discussing with Mr. Kennedy in any of those
 2         prior conversations Delaney Gibson's involvement in the
 3         case?
 4   A:    No.
 5   Q:    Do you remember discussing Mr. Kennedy in any of the prior
 6         conversations, the involvement of anyone other than Mr.
 7         Spirko in the case?
 8   A:    I believe that at one time Clarence brought up to Kennedy
 9         the name of Wiler or Willier, however you want to say the
10         word, and asked him if anything else had ever been done or
11         if he even knew anything about him or of everything.
12         Kennedy asked him, "Well, what are you even talking about?"
13         And Clarence said, "I don't know.  I just cannot get this
14         man out of my mind as not being a part of this."  I did
15         hear Clarence say that once to Kennedy, but it was dropped.
16         It was just dropped.  I think that was all that was said
17         and it was dropped.
18   Q:    You have never met Mr. Strausbaugh, have you?
19   A:    No, I have not seen him, recognize him or know him.  I
20         spoke with him on the phone.  That is all I have done with
21         Strausbaugh.
22   Q:    And just remind me.  About when was that?
23   A:    Clarence was still alive.  Clarence wanted to talk to Tom
24         to see how Tom was doing, to see if he knew anything, if
25         anything new had turned up and to tell him we were talking
0068
 1         to Paul Hartman and Paul was excited about stuff.  Did Tom
 2         know anything about it.  And I cannot tell you what time it
 3         was.  I just remember Clarence doing this.
 4   Q:    This was since the time you and Clarence decided to start
 5         working on the book, I assume?
 6   A:    Yes.
 7   Q:    And do you remember what Mr. Strausbaugh said?
 8   A:    He hasn't talked with Tom for a long, long, long time.  He
 9         didn't really know anything.  His life had taken this move.
10         His life had done this.  And they really basically got to
11         talking about how their lives have changed since the murder
12         and seeing each other and things like that.  Tom did not,
13         did not go in detail with Clarence about anything.
14   Q:    To your knowledge, did he ever discuss with you or Clarence
15         Delaney Gibson's involvement in the case?
16   A:    He might have to Clarence, but I was not on the other phone
17         when he was talking to Tom Strausbaugh.  So I don't know.
18   Q:    Clarence did not tell you about any such conversation?
19   A:    No, he did not mention it.  I'm not saying he didn't.  I'm
20         saying he didn't mention it to me.
21   Q:    Now, I know Clarence told you a fair amount about the case;
22         is that correct?
23   A:    Correct.
24   Q:    And did he ever tell you anything about what was going on
25         at the time of the kidnapping and murder?
0069
 1   A:    Yes, he did.  No one seemed to pay any attention to
 2         Clarence.  He said he had told Ralph Eversole his belief.
 3         He told me that he had told Paul Hartman his belief.  But
 4         no one paid any attention to his beliefs and what was going
 5         on.
 6              If you have not been to Elgin, you will not understand
 7         what I'm speaking of.  Elgin is about, I don't know, five,
 8         six homes, whatever.  There is an elevator there and there
 9         is a post office that is probably just as small as what
10         this room here is, if not even that big.  Not even this
11         big.
12              And it is directly, the post office is directly in
13         front of the elevator, directly.  Janie was becoming very
14         irritable, very upset.  Every night she came home she was
15         almost frantic and he kept asking her, "Janie, what is the
16         matter?  What's the matter?"  When I say "Janie," I'm
17         speaking of Betty Jane Mottinger.  She is known as Janie,
18         not as Betty Jane.  He always spoke of her as Janie.  She
19         said, "Nothing."  "Janie, it will be all right."  "It's
20         just my job."  So finally she got to the place she wasn't
21         sleeping well at night.  Clarence said, "This is enough.
22         I'm putting my foot down.  Are you talking to me now?"
23              He said they laid in bed for some length of time and
24         she told him that she was very concerned, very upset.  She
25         told him that there was packages that was coming into Elgin
0070
 1         Post Office.  And they were coming in regularly.  They was
 2         an odd shape package.  Usually the same shape.  She said
 3         that men from Findlay had been coming over to pick up these
 4         packages, and he says, "What do you mean?  Why weren't they
 5         delivered to Findlay if the men are from Findlay?"  She
 6         said, "I don't know.  This is why I just cannot understand
 7         what is going on."
 8   Q:    How do you know they are from Findlay?
 9   A:    Well, I got to talking to him and that's where they are
10         from.  "Janie, what is going on?"  She said, "Clarence, I'm
11         scared that drugs are involved."
12              And at that time Janie also had noticed that drugs,
13         drug affiliation, drug business was being done at the
14         elevator by Mr. Smith who owned the elevator.
15              It was a quite well-known thing.  There wasn't anybody
16         in the entire community didn't know Smith was involved.
17         Everybody knew he was involved in drugs.  The guys that
18         hauled for him, they would talk about it.  Everybody would
19         talk about it.
20              And she also seen them putting drugs in a drum at the
21         elevator.  And she knew they were drugs.  How she knew for
22         sure they were drugs, I don't know.  There was an
23         electrician working that day and he seen Janie go over and
24         look in the drum and see that there was drugs in it.
25              Janie said, "These men from Findlay, every time they
0071
 1         come, Clarence, they are going back and talking to the guys
 2         at the elevator.  I don't know if they are talking to Mr.
 3         Smith or who, but they are going back there.  I'm not
 4         sitting easy about this.  Something is wrong.
 5              Clarence told Janie that when they got back -- they
 6         were planning on a vacation.  When they got back, she is
 7         going to have to do something about it.  Janie was going to
 8         go to the authorities when they got back.  Janie was going
 9         to go to the postal -- she was postmistress.  She knew who
10         to get ahold of.  She was going to the postal people to
11         tell them about what her fears and anxiety of what was
12         going on.
13              Clarence says, "Whatever you go do, Janie, the next
14         time they come for these packages, don't give them the
15         package, Janie.  Give it to the authorities.  Don't give
16         them the package."  Janie had agreed to this with Clarence.
17              Instead of going on vacation like they had planned,
18         she had gotten called back to the post office.  She had
19         gone.  That was the last Clarence had seen of Janie.  She
20         was abducted that day.  The night before they discussed
21         that she was not to give the package.  She was going to
22         tell and my husband had to die thinking that was his fault
23         that she was murdered because if she would have just gave
24         the package, perhaps they wouldn't have hurt her.  In his
25         mind he thought she had listened to him and maybe that's
0072
 1         why she was abducted, that she knew, and she wasn't giving
 2         it over, and she was going to the authorities.  And he
 3         often asked God to please forgive him.  To hang on to the
 4         package.  So this is how come this man wanted to find them
 5         all.
 6   Q:    What you have just told us, did you say that Clarence had
 7         told that to Ralph Eversole?
 8   A:    Clarence told me that he had told Ralph Eversole and he had
 9         told Paul Hartman that there was men coming from Findlay
10         picking up drugs or what Janie thought to be drugs in those
11         packages.  And he said, "Connie, everybody just kind of
12         overlooked it and they were just gung-ho to find the guy
13         and I don't think anyone paid any attention."
14   Q:    Did he tell you that he told Mr. Eversole and Mr. Hartman
15         this during the time --
16   A:    He said he told them -- he said he told them, "If you are
17         trying to find Janie, I'm afraid it's got to do with drugs.
18         I think Mr. Smith is involved or knows something about this
19         and I think the guys from Findlay that have done this.  I
20         think there was maybe a package."
21   Q:    So you are saying he told them this during the time they
22         were still looking for Janie?
23   A:    Absolutely.
24   Q:    And you said he told Eversole and Hartman?
25   A:    He told me he told those two.  But he said they just kind
0073
 1         of overlooked it or ignored it or didn't pay any attention
 2         or if they took it to heart, they didn't take it all the
 3         way to heart like he wanted them to, put it that way.
 4   Q:    Did he ever give you any indication or opinion as to why
 5         they didn't take it to heart?
 6   A:    No, he did not.  He said at that time everybody was so
 7         upset after everything and all at once Spirko was caught
 8         and away they just kind of went with everything and
 9         everything else was dismissed.  That's why I think
10         truthfully and honestly when Clarence found out about Mr.
11         Willier, that -- and he was from Findlay, and Clarence in
12         his investigation and things that he found and then through
13         our interviews found out he did have the exact car that was
14         described to be there at that time.  There was so many
15         things, so many, many, many things that just drew Clarence,
16         and he was putting it together.  It was like a puzzle.  And
17         it was all coming together with these interviews.  Like a
18         total puzzle.  This is why he was so determined that this
19         is who the gentleman was.
20   Q:    And just to be clear, did he come to this conclusion and
21         determining at the time you were working on the book on
22         Janie?
23   A:    He always had that in his mind, before, after, during,
24         always had that in his mind, because of what Janie said.
25         He had that in his mind because of the guys were from
0074
 1         Findlay.  This all came to his mind.  And then in one of
 2         the interviews he also heard where Spirko described tanks
 3         that were at Findlay.  Spirko described a trailer.  When
 4         the trailer was found, it happened to be this gentleman's
 5         trailer.  The woman across said that she was so sure that
 6         perhaps Janie was in the back seat.  All of this was going
 7         through Clarence's mind.  In his mind, in Clarence's mind,
 8         Spirko, yes, amen, Spirko.  But come on, let's get this
 9         Willier.  In his mind, this is what he -- Clarence always
10         called him Willier.  That's why I'm saying.  Then later I
11         found out you pronounce it different.  Clarence always
12         called him Willier.  This is why we stuck with this.  This
13         is why we tried to hard.  He was a painter.  It was found
14         that the paint scrapings from a house that him and his boss
15         Dingus -- paint.  Anyways, that this scrapings, the
16         forensics man even found it was alike.  It was everything
17         was pointing this, this and this is why he didn't want it
18         to stop.
19   Q:    I would like to go back just briefly to your interview with
20         Mr. Hartman and look at it a couple seconds.
21   A:    All right.
22   Q:    Could you look at what has been marked as Exhibit 1?
23   A:    Okay.
24   Q:    And can you turn to page 5?
25   A:    Okay.
0075
 1   Q:    And do you see about ten or 12 lines down where it says
 2         "Paul:  'Right!'"
 3   A:    I see that.
 4   Q:    Can you read those next, seven or eight lines into the
 5         record, please?
 6   A:    Okay.  This is Paul speaking.  "Paul:  'Right!  Otherwise
 7         if you say I'm going to do this place in Elgin, and I will
 8         meet you at this place at this time, but firstly why would
 9         you pick Elgin and secondly, there is no evidence of any
10         communication.  So basically it establishes out.'"
11         "Connie:  'Then why was he indicted?  Then why?'"
12   Q:    Let me stop you.
13              From your understanding of the transcript, when you
14         say "Then why was he indicted," who is he"?
15   A:    Gibson, Delaney Gibson.
16   Q:    Please continue.
17   A:    "Paul:  'It was the prosecutor's decision, not mine.
18         Because I said he didn't do it.  And here is the proof.'"
19         "Connie:  'Kennedy did this?'"
20              "Paul:  'No, it was Kiester who did that.'"
21              "Kiester?"
22              "Paul:  'Yes.'"
23              "Connie:  'Kiester?  I know him.  He is kind of --
24         well, you know.'"
25              "Paul:  'So anyways, I said, "Look, he didn't do it.
0076
 1         Well, we are going with it anyways.  Well, you do it as you
 2         want, but I'm telling you the guy didn't do it."  But that
 3         was his decision, not mine.  I argued against it.  So we
 4         pretty much have a divided camp now.  Strausbaugh and
 5         others are saying they got the guy.  And I'm saying, no,
 6         you don't got the guy.  He is not the guy.  So we go ahead
 7         and do the indictment, prepare for trial, go to trial, and
 8         convict the son of a bitch in trial and in part -- I don't
 9         know.  Have you read the trial transcripts?'"
10   Q:    Let me ask you to stop.  Thank you.
11              Is the section that you just read, do you believe that
12         is an accurate transcription of what Mr. Hartman said
13         during the interview you had with him?
14   A:    Absolutely.  If you get those tapes, you will see it's
15         absolute.
16   Q:    I ask the reporter to mark this Exhibit 3.
17   A:    Went over those tapes, way, way too many times to make
18         sure.  I know I heard that and I typed that according to
19         the tapes.
20              (A document was marked as Exhibit 3 by the reporter.)
21   BY MR. DUNN:
22   Q:    Mrs. Mottinger, the reporter has placed in front of you
23         what has been marked as Exhibit 3.  I want to ask you to
24         take a look at this document.  When you have had a
25         sufficient look at it, please tell me whether you recognize
0077
 1         it, whether you have seen it before.
 2   A:    Yes, I have.
 3   Q:    Briefly, what is it?
 4   A:    It is an affidavit of Paul Hartman's.
 5   Q:    And let me ask you to turn to page 3.
 6   A:    Okay.
 7   Q:    I'm going to read you what is in paragraph 8 in the middle.
 8         "According to Connie Mottinger's affidavit before or during
 9         John Spirko's trial, I told Stephen Kiester that Delaney
10         Gibson had nothing to do with the crime."  Do you believe
11         that in general that is an accurate statement of what you
12         said in your affidavit?
13   A:    He told -- yes.
14   Q:    I'll continue.  "I made no such statement to Stephen
15         Kiester, nor did I state to Connie Mottinger that I made
16         such a statement to Stephen Keister."  Do you see where Mr.
17         Hartman said that?
18   A:    Yes, I do.
19   Q:    In your view, is that a true statement by Mr. Hartman?
20   A:    No, it is not.
21   Q:    And please describe why it is not true.
22   A:    Because I heard him with my own ears, and those tapes will
23         prove it.  He said these exact words that I have here.  I
24         remember him saying it because I couldn't believe my ears,
25         that they weren't listening to Paul Hartman at the time
0078
 1         because in my mind, if he knew Delaney Gibson didn't do it,
 2         then why didn't they have Willier?
 3              MR. DUNN:  Off the record for one second, please.
 4                                -  -  -
 5              (A recess was taken.)
 6              MR. DUNN:  On the record.
 7   BY MR. DUNN:
 8   Q:    I just want to go back and ask a couple things about some
 9         earlier statements.
10              You told us that Clarence at the time of the
11         investigation had told Eversole and told Hartman his
12         theories about the drugs and Janie's concerns, right?
13   A:    That's what he told me, yes.
14   Q:    Did he tell you that when he told Eversole and Hartman that
15         he had informed them that his knowledge was from
16         conversations he had had with Janie soon before the
17         kidnapping?
18   A:    What he told me was that he told them Janie -- they asked
19         if anything was wrong with Janie before this or if he knew
20         of anything at all that was upsetting Jenny.  He said yes.
21         In fact, and he said -- I proceeded in telling them the
22         conversation that he had had with Janie that night and what
23         they had decided to do.
24   Q:    Mr. Kennedy, I think you said that Clarence or maybe
25         Clarence and you knew Mr. Kennedy from before?
0079
 1   A:    Yes.
 2   Q:    Did Mr. Kennedy do any work for you or Mr. Mottinger?
 3   A:    Yes, he did.  Mr. Kennedy was Clarence and I's lawyer.  We
 4         knew him well.
 5   Q:    And for how long has he been your lawyer?
 6   A:    Oh, he was our -- I think I met Mr. Kennedy in 1988.  And
 7         in fact I know that is because that's when I met Clarence
 8         and we had some work to be done on the postal stuff then.
 9         And we kept Mr. Kennedy abreast on everything.
10   Q:    To your knowledge, had Mr. Kennedy done work for Clarence
11         even before then?
12   A:    I cannot answer that question.  I do not know.  I know that
13         they knew each other quite well, and they were always great
14         friends.  I don't know how much work or if any or what was
15         done.
16   Q:    But at least since 1988 Mr. Kennedy had done legal work for
17         you?
18   A:    Absolutely, yes.
19   Q:    In the time you were discussing the case with Mr. Kennedy,
20         did you ever discuss with him to your knowledge the state's
21         decision with respect to Delaney Gibson, on whether they
22         were going to bring him to trial?
23   A:    I asked him, "What are you going to do with Mr. Delaney
24         Gibson?"  I know I asked that.  And he said, "You realize
25         he would have to be brought back and then" -- so I presume
0080
 1         that's what he meant.  A whole new trial for this murder
 2         because he was being held in Kentucky for something else.
 3         So it had to be a new trial, and he would be brought back
 4         for Janie's.  And I said, "Well, then, you are talking
 5         about time?  It would be the same thing for Delaney Gibson
 6         or these other people Clarence feels like it is.  What
 7         makes a difference?  You are talking about time."  And he
 8         said, "We'll talk to you about it later" and he patted me
 9         on the shoulder.  That's what I always got, pat on the
10         shoulder and kind of dismissed.
11   Q:    Did you ever discuss with him whether Mr. Gibson was to be
12         executed in Kentucky or not?
13   A:    I asked him how long Mr. Gibson was going to be in
14         Kentucky, how long he was going to serve, when this could
15         possibly happen?  And he said, "We'll keep you informed."
16         I was asking the questions.  And I wasn't getting answers.
17         I think the more answers I got or didn't get, the more
18         Clarence was determined.
19   Q:    Were you ever informed by Mr. Kennedy that Delaney Gibson
20         was released from Kentucky?
21   A:    Yes, I was.
22   Q:    He told you that?
23   A:    No, now, wait a minute.  What happened was after I told him
24         that Delaney Gibson had not done this, according to Paul
25         Hartman, that then it was about a week later I read it in
0081
 1         the paper, and then I go and I said, "Hey, Charles.  What
 2         is happening here?"  And he said, "It's been dismissed."
 3   Q:    Before that time --
 4   A:    He told it might had been dismissed.
 5   Q:    Before that time, had you ever become aware that Delaney
 6         Gibson had been released from prison in Kentucky?
 7   A:    No, I thought that's where he was stuck at.  I imagine
 8         Clarence would have wanted to see about that, too, I
 9         imagine.
10   Q:    During your discussions with Mr. Kennedy, was he aware that
11         you and Clarence were working on a book about Janie?
12   A:    I think we mentioned something about it, I'm sure, because
13         Clarence kept him abreast of everything.
14   Q:    So you think you mentioned that to Mr. Kennedy when
15         Clarence was still alive?
16   A:    Clarence might have.  Clarence asked him to come up and go
17         golfing with him, and they hadn't done it yes.  But they
18         were close enough to discuss things like that.  So I
19         imagine they did because this book was very important to
20         Clarence, but I cannot say for sure.  I do not know that
21         for a fact.  I'm assuming since this book was Clarence's
22         number one priority.  He talked about it with everybody
23         else.
24   Q:    When you met with Kennedy after you had your meeting with
25         Mr. Hartman, do you know whether Mr. Kennedy was aware that
0082
 1         you were working on a book?
 2   A:    No, I'm not sure of that at all, no.
 3              (A document was marked as Exhibit 4 by the reporter.)
 4   BY MR. DUNN:
 5   Q:    Mrs. Mottinger, I just want to quickly go over some other
 6         documents to see if you can recognize them and can briefly
 7         describe them for us.  You have been provided what has now
 8         been marked Exhibit 4.  Do you recognize this document?
 9   A:    Yes, I do.  It is my own document -- or it's my own
10         writing.  This was taken -- I had a little address book and
11         so forth, and I kept everything in it.  These papers, this
12         writing is all from that book.
13              This is the right year and the papers.  This is the
14         people we had gotten ahold of.  This is the people we had
15         talked to.  This is the people that we discussed Janie's
16         murder with.
17   Q:    And Mr. Mottinger was still alive at the time you were
18         doing this, correct?
19   A:    Absolutely.
20   Q:    And was that around the time you were doing the petition?
21   A:    Yes, it is.  Yes, in fact, this came about while we were
22         doing the petition, and we were out there getting it in the
23         paper, and we were out there trying to get it over the
24         radio and we was out there trying to get us everything to
25         help us out with the petition.
0083
 1   Q:    And is this about September 2002?
 2   A:    Yes.
 3              (A document was marked as Exhibit 5 by the reporter.)
 4   BY MR. DUNN:
 5   Q:    The court reporter has placed before you what has been
 6         marked as Exhibit 5.
 7   A:    Correct.
 8   Q:    Do you recognize this document?
 9   A:    Yes, this is an interview that I had had with -- and this
10         is the gentleman's correct name.  Homer Chapa and I did it
11         on December 6, 2002.  He is the chief of police in Swanton
12         Police Department now.  At that time of Janie's murder, I
13         think he was working, but now he is chief.  This is what I
14         had wrote up from that interview.
15   Q:    Describe if you would how you came to write this up.  Did
16         you write it up from notes you had or did you write it from
17         memory?  How did you come to write this up?
18   A:    Exactly the way you said.  I had taken notes as I had
19         talked with him.  I went back out to the car, taken my
20         notes and took out my laptop, and I did it right there in
21         the parking lot of the Swanton Police Department.
22   Q:    So --
23   A:    In case I had some kind or something I wanted to ask him, I
24         was there, and I could do so.
25   Q:    So let me be clear.  You took notes of your interview with
0084
 1         Mr. Chapa?
 2   A:    Yes, I did.
 3   Q:    And did you take those notes at the time that you had your
 4         interview with him?
 5   A:    Yes, I did.
 6   Q:    And I think you said you then used those notes to type up
 7         the document that is Exhibit 5?
 8   A:    Yes, I did.
 9   Q:    And I think is it correct that you did that immediately
10         after your interview with Mr. Chapa?
11   A:    Out in the parking lot of the sheriff's department, yes, I
12         did because I didn't want to lose any of it.
13   Q:    Is Exhibit 5 an accurate reflection of your interview with
14         Mr. Chapa?
15   A:    Yes, it is.  In fact, if you look at the back page, the
16         comments that were made, that is the comment he even told
17         me.  He is the one who told me that comment.  Yes, this is
18         all with him.
19              (A document was marked as Exhibit 6 by the reporter.)
20   A:    Okay.
21   BY MR. DUNN:
22   Q:    Do you recognize what has been marked as Exhibit 6?
23   A:    Yes, I do.
24   Q:    What is it?
25   A:    It is a letter that I wrote to Mr. Strausbaugh, and I sent
0085
 1         this letter along with the newspaper articles from Bob
 2         Painter.  I had sent these to Mr. Strausbaugh, and I was
 3         asking for his help.  At the same time I wrote quite a few
 4         letters like this asking for help.
 5   Q:    Did you send this letter to Mr. Strausbaugh?
 6   A:    Yes, but I never heard back from him.  I never heard
 7         anything.  My return address was up in the corner, but it
 8         didn't even come back to me.  So I do not know.
 9              (A document was marked as Exhibit 7 by the reporter.)
10   BY MR. DUNN:
11   Q:    Do you recognize what has been marked as Exhibit 7?
12   A:    Yes, I do.
13   Q:    What is that?
14   A:    This is a letter -- I'm exhausting myself trying to come to
15         the end of this before the end of Spirko.  I'm exhausting
16         myself.  I'm going to every means I know of to get
17         everybody.  This is a pleading letter to Mr. Ted Wasky.  He
18         is the -- I don't know if he is the head -- he is a
19         gentleman with the FBI in Cleveland where that would be the
20         man that would take care of anything that had to do with
21         Van Wert, Ohio.
22              And I am asking and begging for his help, that I feel
23         they did not finish the case at all.  Please help me with
24         this.  And it is basically if you would read this letter,
25         Mr. Strausbaugh's letter, and a letter that I sent to Mr.
0086
 1         Wille, you will see they are basically about the same.
 2   Q:    Did you ever receive a response to this letter to Mr.
 3         Wasky?
 4   A:    None.
 5   Q:    Never had a phone call with Mr. Wasky?
 6   A:    No, none.
 7   Q:    Never got a letter from Mr. Wasky?
 8   A:    None.
 9   Q:    You mentioned the letter from Mr. Wille.  Let's have this
10         next document marked.
11   A:    Yes, I sent one to him.
12              (A document was marked as Exhibit 8 by the reporter.)
13   BY MR. DUNN:
14   Q:    Do you have in front of you what has been marked as Exhibit
15         8?
16   A:    Yes.
17   Q:    What is that?
18   A:    This is a letter that I sent at the same time to Charles
19         Wille, Assistant Attorney General, Capital Crimes Section,
20         Columbus, Ohio.
21   Q:    Did Mr. Wille respond to this letter?
22   A:    I left him this letter to get back to me when you have the
23         time and when you can.  He did not get right back with me,
24         I must admit, not at the immediate time.  He did later.  He
25         did later, and he did say he got to it as quickly as
0087
 1         possible.  He did get back with me, but not at that time.
 2              At this time I must admit I'm going frantic.  I'm not
 3         hearing from nobody.  I'm not getting no answers from
 4         anybody.  Spirko could get executed at any time.  I'm not
 5         going to get the other men my husband wanted.  What am I
 6         going to do?  At the exact same time I'm writing this came
 7         Mr. Bill Latham's article in Bob Painter's article in the
 8         paper.  So I fell back to going to Mr. Dunn's office.
 9   Q:    You asked Mr. Wille a number of questions in this letter.
10   A:    Yes, I did.
11   Q:    Has he answered those for you?
12   A:    When I did talk to Mr. Wille, he was very cordial.  He said
13         that it had -- that he was sorry.  He apologized to me that
14         he had not gotten back with me earlier.  He apologized that
15         he wasn't to his knowledge at the time about James Clark
16         Kelley.  It hadn't been investigated.  This is all -- he
17         had known -- through investigation, James Clark Kelley's
18         name had been brought up.  But he did not remember at the
19         time until he dwelled into it.
20              He did say, yes, that it was, and he should have told
21         me earlier, and he did not and he apologized to me.
22   Q:    Did he say how much earlier he should have told you?
23   A:    Well, we were talking about this letter.  He said he was
24         very sorry he didn't get back with me on this letter.  And,
25         yes, that James Clark Kelley's name had been mentioned
0088
 1         before in some documents that he had looked at.  He did not
 2         say how much earlier, no, not to me didn't say how much
 3         earlier the documents were, no.
 4   Q:    Did you ever tell Mr. Wille that in your view it has been
 5         proven beyond a doubt that Delaney Gibson was not involved?
 6   A:    I told Mr. Wille that -- well, the day I had talked with
 7         Paul Hartman, I had called him and I said, "My gosh, do you
 8         know what he told me?"  He said.  And, yes, I did tell him
 9         that Delaney Gibson, Paul Hartman claimed Delaney Gibson
10         had nothing to do with it.  Paul Hartman said it's Effie
11         Rader and James Clark Kelley.
12   Q:    Did he respond to that statement that you just related?
13   A:    He said he would look into it as soon as possible, that
14         they had their own investigators and he thanked me very
15         much for calling him.
16   Q:    Other than that, has he ever responded to that statement
17         that you just made?
18   A:    No.
19   Q:    Did you ever ask him if it was too late to take to trial
20         the other people who were responsible for the murder and
21         kidnapping of Betty Jane Mottinger?
22   A:    First he said, "You have got to prove who else was it.
23         It's been sometime."  And he said basically the same thing
24         to me that Kennedy said, that a lot of people have moved
25         away.  A lot of people's memories have gone.  A lot of
0089
 1         people have died that were the main people in this case.
 2         He led me to believe -- he did not come right out and say,
 3         but he led me to believe it would be almost impossible to
 4         go back and have an accurate trial.
 5   Q:    Did you ask him whether Carl Smith and his sons were
 6         completely cleared involving this case?
 7   A:    I did in my letter.
 8   Q:    Did he ever respond to you?
 9   A:    No, because he didn't respond to my letter until just a few
10         days ago.
11   Q:    He responded a few days ago?
12   A:    He called me, yes.
13   Q:    And he gave you a response over the phone?
14   A:    Yes, he did.
15   Q:    Have you during this deposition told us what he has told
16         you on the phone?  Is there anything you haven't told us?
17   A:    No, that's what he told me over the phone, that he just
18         found out or that he had gotten some documents and seen
19         that it was all mentioned, these gentlemen, that they had
20         been checked into.  There is nothing that these gentlemen
21         were involved with, and he told me all that just lately.
22   Q:    Are you talking about the Smiths?
23   A:    All of them.  Yes, all my questions.  He said that he
24         looked over all my questions and there was nothing to any
25         of this.
0090
 1   Q:    Same thing with respect to the package coming for people in
 2         Findlay?
 3   A:    Right.  That he didn't know anything about this.
 4   Q:    Same thing with respect to John Willier?
 5   A:    He did know John Willier.
 6   Q:    He did know that he was brought up in the case.  He did
 7         know that, yes, he was familiar with the name John Willier?
 8   A:    Yes.
 9   Q:    But did he tell you that John Willier had been cleared of
10         involvement or something to the substance of that?
11   A:    I think his comment to me was all this has been checked
12         into, and that all this has been cleared.  I think he did
13         it as a general, all this.  I don't think it was ever taken
14         piece by piece, person by person.
15   Q:    And did he ever respond to your comment where you asked him
16         if it was too late to give anyone a polygraph?
17   A:    No, I don't believe we did do that.
18   Q:    If you can remember, I want to ask you when was your most
19         recent conversation with Mr. Wille?
20   A:    My conversation was after I got back from Washington, DC
21         and you had put my affidavit in something or you had
22         corresponded with Mr. Wille saying that I was there or
23         something like that, he called me.
24   Q:    So I think you were in Washington at the end of February.
25         And now we are in the middle of May.  I don't know whether
0091
 1         you can remember when in between those times that might
 2         have, your last conversation with him might have been.
 3   A:    If I'm just to throw out a guess, perhaps three weeks ago.
 4         Two to three weeks ago.  I'm not sure about that.
 5              (A document was marked as Exhibit 9 by the reporter.)
 6   BY MR. DUNN:
 7   Q:    Do you recognizes Exhibit 9?
 8   A:    Yes, I do.
 9   Q:    What is it?
10   A:    We had a petition telling everybody basically on the front
11         of the petition what the petition was about, for Betty
12         Jane's murder, asking to have Spirko executed, that we
13         figured the state was taking too long.  I mean, after all
14         it's been over 20-some years.  Let's do something about
15         this.  We -- it says in the corner here.  I have got the
16         date.  I'm a person that I put everything down.
17              9/17/02 we put out these petitions.  They were picked
18         up on 9/23 of '02.  The places that you see that are listed
19         are the places that we left and who we left the petition
20         with and where we gathered the petitions back up.  And as
21         you see in the corner, the people's names were counted and
22         was 2188 names were received in a week's time to get Spirko
23         executed.
24   Q:    And if you can turn the page.  It says --
25   A:    Yes.
0092
 1   Q:    It says October 3, 9:00 AM?
 2   A:    Yes.
 3   Q:    Charles Wille and Joe Case; is that right?
 4   A:    Yes.
 5   Q:    And can you tell us what that is a reference to?
 6   A:    Yes.  I called up there and I wanted to talk to him, and I
 7         wanted to bring him this petition.  That is when we had
 8         made a meeting.  He said, "Sure, you can come right on up."
 9         And Clarence and I went there on October 3rd, and it was at
10         nine o'clock, and it was at Mr. Wille's office.  And Mr.
11         Joe Case was also there.  And he gave me instructions.
12         Underneath this you will see there is instructions.  That
13         is the instructions he gave me over the phone of how to get
14         to his office.
15   Q:    And I think you have told us before about your meeting --
16   A:    Yes.
17   Q:    -- with him?
18   A:    Yes.
19              (A document was marked as Exhibit 10 by the reporter.)
20   A:    Okay.
21   BY MR. DUNN:
22   Q:    Do you recognize this document?
23   A:    Yes, I do.
24   Q:    What is it?
25   A:    This is also from that same black little book that I,
0093
 1         address book that I have mentioned before.  This is
 2         important phone calls to me.  This is everybody.  Everybody
 3         that I had gotten in contact with, everybody that I had
 4         talked to about this case.  This will show you how many
 5         people that Clarence and I got ahold of to get help to have
 6         this done.  And it's addresses and phone numbers.
 7   Q:    Is all the handwriting in here your handwriting?
 8   A:    Yes, it is.
 9   Q:    Mrs. Mottinger, do you know a gentleman named Charles Koch?
10   A:    I think that's the guy that found Janie.
11              No, not offhand familiar with that.  I think he was
12         the guy who found Janie's body, wasn't it?  I don't know,
13         sir.
14              MR. DUNN:  All right.  Thank you.
15              Mrs. Mottinger, I don't have any further questions for
16         you.  Thank you very much for your time.  Mr. Wille may
17         have questions for you.
18              MR. WILLE:  Thank you.  I do have a few questions.
19              THE WITNESS:  Okay.
20              MR. HILL:  At some point would you like to go off the
21         record for a second?  Do you want to do it after you ask
22         the questions?
23              MR. WILLE:  If you want to break here.
24              MR. HILL:  Off the record.
25              (A recess was taken.)
0094
 1                           -  -  -
 2              MR. WILLE:  Back on the record.
 3                       CROSS-EXAMINATION
 4   BY MR. WILLE:
 5   Q:    Ms. Mottinger, I want to go back and start out first with
 6         you had mentioned a petition that you had prepared asking
 7         for Mr. Spirko's execution.  Do you recall Mr. Dunn's
 8         questions about that?
 9   A:    Yes, I do.
10   Q:    And would it be fair to say that you were concerned about
11         some delays in Mr. Spirko's execution?
12   A:    Yes, very, very extremely concerned because it had been
13         over 20-some years.  Come on.  Let's get with it.
14   Q:    And in discussing this potential delay or this issue of
15         delay with me, would it be fair to say that you were
16         concerned that you didn't want anything that you did to
17         cause delay?
18   A:    That is correct.  I did not.
19   Q:    So would it be fair so say then in discussing anything you
20         might do, that you were very concerned that you did not
21         want to do anything that yourself would cause delay?
22   A:    Absolutely because we wanted Spirko to go down, and I still
23         want Spirko to go down.
24   Q:    So it would be fair to say in discussing any investigation
25         or possible book that you might be doing, that you were
0095
 1         concerned as you did not want yourself to cause any delay?
 2   A:    No, I didn't want it to cause any delay at all.  In fact, I
 3         was trying our best to get to the black and white, to hand
 4         it over and say get this guy with Spirko.  Let's take them
 5         all the same day if you want.
 6   Q:    And you were saying -- would it be fair to say then in
 7         discussing this, you had indicated that the book was not
 8         finished or you didn't expect this to be happening very
 9         soon?
10   A:    No, no, absolutely not.
11   Q:    Now, you also mentioned that with your husband, Clarence,
12         that he had talked to you about investigation, correct?
13   A:    Yes.
14   Q:    And he had mentioned at one point he had said that he had
15         thought that Mr. Willier was involved.  Is that fair to
16         say?
17   A:    Absolutely he felt that.
18   Q:    Ms. Mottinger, have you had an opportunity to read the
19         transcript of Mr. Spirko's trial?
20   A:    I read that part that you sent me in the Sixth Circuit
21         Court, that part that was in there.  Document briefing.
22   Q:    Do you recall -- do you recall reading the actual trial
23         transcript?
24   A:    Oh, I never seen the actual trial transcript, no.
25   Q:    So you wouldn't know if in deed Mr. Willier's name had come
0096
 1         up during the trial as a possible suspect?
 2   A:    No, I have no knowledge of that.
 3   Q:    Okay.  So you wouldn't know in fact if you -- correct me if
 4         I'm wrong, but when Mr. Dunn asked you some questions, you
 5         talked about you had some knowledge about a trailer.  You
 6         had heard something about a trailer.  Is that fair to say?
 7   A:    Yes, absolutely.
 8   Q:    You wouldn't know if that in fact had been discussed at the
 9         trial.  You would not know that?
10   A:    Well, now, maybe because I tell you what.  I got an awful
11         lot of newspaper articles and we went through those
12         newspapers articles.  There was one article that even
13         showed a picture of Spirko with some gentleman being led
14         from the trailer.  And it said in there that he said that
15         he -- it said in the paper that he said that it was at
16         Findlay.  He was driven to and around the tanks, and we
17         even took that route and, yes, he could have seen those oil
18         tanks.
19   Q:    Just so if I can phrase this correctly, it's your
20         recollection that perhaps by reading newspaper articles you
21         thought that perhaps Mr. Spirko has talked about or
22         testified with respect to this trailer at his own trial?
23   A:    Yes.
24   Q:    Is that fair to say?
25   A:    Yes.
0097
 1   Q:    And your husband as you said many times.  That he was
 2         concerned about finding everybody responsible, correct?
 3   A:    Yes.
 4   Q:    And I think he was pretty from -- what I have talked to you
 5         many times, he was a pretty diligent fellow?
 6   A:    Extremely.
 7   Q:    And if he would have had information, some real hard
 8         information about drugs going on at the post office, he
 9         would have told that to the please.  Would that be fair to
10         say?
11   A:    Absolutely.  I know he did.  He is that type of person.  He
12         don't back down from nobody at any time.  It don't matter
13         who you are.
14   Q:    So it would be fair to say then that he did have some
15         suspicion about the post office.  Is that fair to say?
16   A:    More than suspicion.  I mean, Clarence believed his wife
17         entirely and he went to his grave thinking this.
18   Q:    And had he developed some evidence?  I mean, had he, for
19         example, had he actually observed what he thought were
20         drugs there, he would have told the please.  Wouldn't that
21         be fair to say?
22   A:    If he had, yes.  But he just got Janie to tell him that the
23         night before.  He had just got her to admit that, what was
24         bothering her.
25   Q:    Now, in the many investigations in the many people that you
0098
 1         have talked to, and this is since Spirko's trial, have you
 2         ever uncovered anything that led you to think that Mr.
 3         Spirko wasn't involved?
 4   A:    Oh, absolutely not.  I believe that at some time, some
 5         point -- he was involved.  He is definitely in our heart,
 6         in our mind a part of this.
 7   Q:    Now, you talked a little bit.  Mr. Dunn asked you some
 8         questions about some conversations that you had with
 9         Inspector Hartman.  I want to go back first of all to the
10         initial conversations you talked about with him on the
11         telephone.
12   A:    Okay.
13   Q:    If you remember his questions.
14              Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but you indicated that
15         Mr. Hartman had talked to you about some new information
16         that he had uncovered.  Is that fair to say?
17   A:    Yes.
18   Q:    And by "new," you were speaking now or you thought he was
19         speaking in terms of information that he had developed
20         after Mr. Spirko's trial.  That fair to say?
21   A:    Yes.  The new information that he led me to believe that he
22         found since then was to do with Effie Rader and James Clark
23         Kelley.
24   Q:    So it was clear in your mind always that he was talking,
25         when he was talking about Mr. Kelley, he was talking about
0099
 1         information that he developed after Mr. Spirko's trial?
 2   A:    That's what he led me to believe, yes.
 3   Q:    Did he ever tell you at what time or how many years later
 4         that he had developed this information?
 5   A:    No, he did not.
 6              I'll tell you what he did tell me exactly.  He said
 7         that he had found -- and I do not understand why this was
 8         done.  He said that he had found at the investigation when
 9         he was there at the post office some keys on a swivel type
10         thing.  He said that he kept the keys, and I do remember I
11         asked him, "You didn't hand them in?"  And he said, "No, I
12         kept the keys."  He said that the keys had a number at the
13         top.  It was a box, a post office box key with a number at
14         the to.  That is what he had worked his investigation upon
15         all these years was that key.
16              That key -- as time led on, he found out that key did
17         belong to Mr. James Clark Kelley.
18   Q:    And had indicated -- to go back a little to the time
19         involved here, he indicated to you that he had continued to
20         investigate himself in this case after Mr. Spirko 's trial.
21   A:    Correct.
22   Q:    Correct?
23              And so matter of fact, he told you -- did he tell you
24         basically that he kept investigating this case until he
25         retired?  Is that fair to say?
0100
 1   A:    Yes, that's what he said.
 2   Q:    So anything that he talked about in terms of new
 3         information then would be, it could be many years after the
 4         fact from what you know?
 5   A:    From what I know, yes.
 6   Q:    Now, I want to, the -- let's go back a little bit and talk
 7         about your affidavit that you had done for, had provided to
 8         Mr. Hill and Mr. Dunn.  I want to call your attention to
 9         paragraph 8 of your affidavit.
10   A:    Okay.
11   Q:    And we see there that you state Mr. Kelley admitted to
12         Postal Inspector, Don Filler --  I'll pronounce his name
13         like that -- that he and Mr. Spirko admitted the kidnapping
14         and murder.  Do you see where I'm referring to?
15   A:    Yes.
16   Q:    Let me see if I understand what you are saying there is do
17         you mean that Kelley and Spirko, there was information or
18         statement that they had done the murder together?  Is that
19         what you took Mr. Hartman to be saying?
20   A:    That I took my information that Mr. Hartman --
21   Q:    Going back to, the --
22   A:    Said that he got the information from Don Filler who said
23         that Kelley said him and Spirko had done it.
24   Q:    Just to be clear then, you understood what Mr. Hartman was
25         talking about was he was saying that, his statements lead
0101
 1         you to indicate that this information was that Spirko was
 2         still involved?
 3   A:    Absolutely.
 4   Q:    I mean Spirko was still involved?
 5   A:    Absolutely.
 6   Q:    Now, is it your recollection that Inspector Hartman said to
 7         you that Mr. Kelley actually told Inspector Filler that?
 8         Inspector Filler actually interviewed and he was told by
 9         Kelley?
10   A:    Okay.  Let me tell you how I was told.  Then you take it
11         from there, okay.
12   Q:    Fair enough.
13   A:    All right.  He told me that a Mr. Filler was another
14         inspector, that Mr. Filler had gotten Mr. Kelley.  Mr.
15         Kelley had pictures of Spirko in his possession.  He knew
16         that Hartman was working on the Spirko case.  They started
17         to put two and two together.  Hartman said that he went and
18         talked to Filler, talked to this gentleman, and that Kelley
19         was known as liking to do post office and that he had
20         admitted, Kelley had admitted that him and Mr. Spirko had
21         done a postmaster in Ohio.
22   Q:    Let me just -- let me interrupt you just a second.  I think
23         I'll clarify my question.  On page 2 of your affidavit in
24         paragraph 8 you say that Mr. Kelley admitted to Postal
25         Inspector Don Filler.  Do you see where I'm referring to?
0102
 1   A:    Yes.
 2   Q:    And what I'm trying to clarify is do you know that Mr.
 3         Hartman said that Mr. Kelley admitted directly to Mr.
 4         Filler?
 5   A:    That's the way I understood it, yes.
 6   Q:    Now, in your notes, you do -- that are attached to your
 7         affidavit, your highlights, you do also discuss Inspector
 8         Filler and where he is talking about some pictures.
 9   A:    Yes.
10   Q:    Okay.
11              Now, is it possible that if I were to represent to you
12         that in fact or our information is that Mr. Hartman had
13         indicated that Mr. Kelley had not directly spoken to
14         Inspector Filler, but rather that Kelley had talked to an
15         FBI informant, if I were to represent to you to that, that
16         indeed our information is that Mr. Kelley did not actually
17         admit anything to Inspector Filler, would that be
18         consistent with your recollection or inconsistent with what
19         Mr. Hartman said?
20   A:    It would be inconsistent with me.
21   Q:    So by the way you recall it then is Inspector Hartman told
22         you definitely or to the best of your recollection, yes,
23         Mr. Kelley had confessed or admitted to Inspector Filler?
24   A:    Correct.
25   Q:    And you took that to mean that Inspector Filler had
0103
 1         actually talked with Kelley?
 2   A:    That's the way I took it, yes.
 3   Q:    And as best you can recall, that's what Inspector Hartman
 4         told you?
 5   A:    Oh, absolutely.
 6   Q:    Is it possible that if I were to represent to you that
 7         Inspector Hartman has indicated that in fact Filler did not
 8         actually talk with Kelley but in fact Filler's information
 9         came from an FBI informant, is it possible that you might
10         have been mistaken in terms of what your recollection is as
11         to what Hartman told you?
12   A:    Let's put it this way, sir:  I don't know how Mr. Hartman
13         got it, but the way he told me was that he quit.
14   Q:    Okay.  So you feel pretty strong about that?
15   A:    I'm absolutely strong on every bit of this.
16   Q:    Okay.
17   A:    How Hartman related it to me is how I wrote it down.  In
18         fact, if you could get those tapes, you would hear it in
19         his own voice, sir.
20   Q:    I want to move to paragraph 7 of your affidavit.  And I
21         want to ask you -- let me go back to a little bit,
22         Inspector Filler and so forth.  Do you recall Inspector
23         Hartman telling you about a photo of John Spirko that
24         Inspector Filler had learned had been found in Mr. Kelley's
25         possession?
0104
 1   A:    Yes.  For some reason they went through his truck or
 2         through his vehicle, Kelley's I'm speaking of and there was
 3         prison photographs of him and Spirko together.  That's what
 4         Mr. Hartman told me.
 5   Q:    As a matter of fact, you reference if I'm not mistake --
 6         let me withdraw that and let me ask.  So you recall
 7         Inspector Hartman mentioning these photographs?
 8   A:    Absolutely.
 9   Q:    Do you recall anything he might have said about how
10         Inspector Filler had gotten these photographs?
11   A:    No, all I know is that he was working on a case, picked up
12         Kelley and they were going through the vehicle.  And that's
13         how they came across the photographs.  That's all he told
14         me.  So I have no other knowledge of that.
15   Q:    Now, if I were to represent to you that in fact Inspector
16         Hartman has indicated that Inspector Filler was looking
17         through a file involving Mr. Kelley when he discovered
18         these photographs, would that be consistent or inconsistent
19         with what you recall Inspector Hartman telling you?
20   A:    Mr. Hartman said that they were -- Mr. Hartman said that
21         they were going through Mr. Kelley's belongings.  He was
22         arrested in the vehicle and stuff and there was pictures.
23         He didn't say anything about a file.  Or not to my
24         recollection do I remember the word "file."
25   Q:    So what you got was from the way you were interpreting what
0105
 1         Mr. Hartman was saying, you took it what he was telling you
 2         was that Inspector Filler had actually participated in an
 3         arrest of Mr. Kelley and found these photographs?
 4   A:    Yeah, because that's all Mr. Hartman mentioned to me was
 5         Mr. Filler.  That's all he mentioned.  He didn't mention
 6         anyone else's involvement.  He didn't mention anyone else's
 7         name.  He just mentioned Mr. Filler's name.
 8   Q:    Is it possible that in not mentioning the particulars of
 9         how these photographs came about, that you perhaps assumed
10         that Mr. Filler had actually found them in Kelley's
11         possession when they were arrested?  Is it possible?  You
12         just kind of made an assumption on what he was telling you?
13   A:    No, heard Hartman tell me.
14   Q:    So your best recollection is that Mr. Hartman said to you
15         that Inspector Filler had while arresting Mr. Kelley had
16         discovered some photographs in his possession?
17   A:    No, that's not what he said early.  He said that Mr. Filler
18         called him because Mr. Kelley had been arrested and that
19         Mr. Filler had found upon the arrest that Mr. Kelley had
20         pictures on his possession of Spirko and him.
21   Q:    Do you recall -- Ms. Mottinger, I don't know if you recall,
22         if you ever had any English teacher like I had.  They
23         always kind of got angry with you like saying --
24   A:    I never was good at this stuff.
25   Q:    So I guess from, if Mr. Hartman said something like had
0106
 1         been found, he really didn't necessarily say who found it,
 2         the photographs?
 3   A:    That's correct.  I will go with that.  I will go with that.
 4   Q:    In other words, it's possible that as we all do sometimes
 5         when somebody uses the past tense, sometimes we fill in our
 6         mind who the person really is?
 7   A:    I will go with it, but in my mind, that is the way I
 8         remember Hartman saying it.  But I will go with that.
 9   Q:    Now, I want to go a little bit too further on to paragraph
10         7 of your affidavit.
11   A:    All right.
12   Q:    In that paragraph you are talking about, I want to focus on
13         the statement where you say that Mr. Hartman indicates that
14         he knew Mr. Gibson had nothing to do with the crime because
15         he had discovered from the Arlington, Texas Insurance
16         Company.  Do you see where I'm referring to?
17   A:    I certainly do.
18   Q:    When he said Arlington, Texas Insurance Company, was it
19         your recollection that he was talking about the name of the
20         insurance company?
21   A:    Yes.
22   Q:    So it wasn't that there was an insurance company in
23         Arlington, Texas, but in fact was the Arlington, Texas
24         Insurance Company.  That's your recollection?
25   A:    That's the way I took it, yes.
0107
 1   Q:    Fair enough.
 2              And did Mr. Hartman say how he had discovered this
 3         information?
 4   A:    Yes.  He told me that he went down -- North Carolina, I
 5         believe.  He went down there and I guess Mr. Gibson was
 6         working for a migrant group at that time.  And he had
 7         talked to his wife and his wife said, no, he couldn't have
 8         possibly been there.  But anyways, he talked to this
 9         migrant group woman.  Ms. -- I want to say Forbes.  Migrant
10         group woman.  And he said she said, yes, he had been
11         working there at that time.  And he had gotten hurt.
12   Q:    So your recollection was Inspector Hartman, his
13         investigation was that he had gone to North Carolina and
14         checked it out.  He had discovered from Delaney Gibson's
15         employer that Delaney had been injured on that date?
16   A:    Yes.
17   Q:    And he went on from there to look and find an x-ray; is
18         that correct?
19   A:    Yes.  I said prove to me he had been there and he said
20         that's probably easy.  He was hurt and he was sent to the
21         hospital.  And then I guess I'm taking this from
22         assumption.  He must have went to the hospital to find
23         these things.  Anyways, he told me it came back.  It was
24         Arlington, Texas Insurance Company had proof that he had
25         made a claim at that time.
0108
 1   Q:    I want to go back to something you just said is that you
 2         said you used the word "assumption."  And I wanted to be
 3         clear about this.
 4   A:    Yes.
 5   Q:    Are you saying that perhaps it was your assumption that Mr.
 6         Hartman had gone to the hospital to find the x-ray?
 7   A:    Yes, this is my assumption because he said he found the
 8         information of the claim.
 9   Q:    So you don't recall him specifically saying I went to a
10         hospital?
11   A:    No.
12   Q:    And discovered the injury?
13   A:    No, I do not remember that, no.
14   Q:    Are you familiar with the name Sonny Baumgardner?
15   A:    Yes, I am.
16   Q:    How do you, are you familiar with that name?
17   A:    Clarence, my husband, told me that that was the gentleman
18         that they first thought was involved, and it was proven
19         that he was not.  And then also in my interview with Paul
20         Hartman, he also mentioned that at first they thought it
21         was Sonny Baumgardner, and it was proven it was not.
22   Q:    Do you recall Clarence telling how Mr. Baumgardner had been
23         eliminated as a suspect?
24   A:    I think Clarence said they talked to his girlfriend or
25         talked to a friend and she somehow proved absolutely,
0109
 1         positively where he was.
 2   Q:    Again, so you do recall that in your conversations with Mr.
 3         Hartman, Baumgardner did come up?
 4   A:    Oh, yes, it is.  Yes, it is.
 5   Q:    If I were to represent to you that Mr. Hartman says and
 6         there are some other things to indicate this that in fact
 7         Mr. Baumgardner had said he had been injured on the job, or
 8         there was information that he had been injured on the job,
 9         and if I were to represent to you that in establishing Mr.
10         Baumgardner's alibi, part of his alibi was that he had in
11         fact received treatment for injuries he had received on the
12         job, is it possible that your recollection, that you have
13         -- possible that you may have mistakenly thought that Mr.
14         Hartman was referring to Gibson versus Mr. Baumgardner?  Is
15         that possible?
16   A:    No, I don't think it was because we talked about
17         Baumgardner in the very beginning of his interview, sir.
18         Then we started talked about Gibson.  And this is when we
19         were talking about Gibson.
20   Q:    Now, you were shown what had been indicated as a partial
21         transcript of the interview, talking now about in April or
22         May?
23   A:    Correct.
24   Q:    That you recall?
25              To your recollection, is Baum -- or my recollection is
0110
 1         that Baumgardner is not mentioned in the transcript.  I
 2         don't know.  You can review it.  But I did not see anything
 3         with respect to Mr. Baumgardner.
 4   A:    No, but it was discussed.  So it must be on the other tape.
 5   Q:    Let me ask you about that.  If indeed -- go back to a
 6         little bit more about Mr. Baumgardner.  Again, you
 7         indicated earlier that you had assumed that Mr. Hartman had
 8         checked out, had gone to the hospital and actually checked
 9         out the x-ray.
10   A:    Yes.
11   Q:    Again, is it -- but your recollection now is you have
12         recollection that Mr. Hartman was talking about Mr. Gibson
13         as apposed to Mr. Baumgardner?
14   A:    Yes, ma'am because when I made my notes, when I made my
15         notes of this important highlights of what he told me, this
16         -- I more or less ignored what he told me about Baumgardner
17         because that was not important to me because he was already
18         not a part of it.  So when I took notes, it all had to do
19         with Gibson.  Then at the end, it all had to do with
20         Kelley.
21   Q:    Is it possible that in doing your notes, you may not have
22         made notes that you thought yourself were not important.
23         Is it possible that you may not have made notes or
24         highlights of things that at the time you felt were not
25         important?
0111
 1   A:    When I was taking my personal notes because I know they
 2         would be on the tape.
 3   Q:    Fair enough.
 4              Is it possible in transcribing the tape, that you may
 5         have paid less attention to matters in the transcription
 6         which throughout were less importance.
 7   A:    No, because I wanted to make sure this was 100 percent
 8         right.  I absolutely wanted to make sure that nobody could
 9         get me for anything that wasn't right.  So, no, I was too
10         thorough on that transcript entirely.
11   Q:    Let me talk a little bit about that transcript, and I
12         apologize.  I can't remember what exhibit number it is.
13         But if I can put my hands on it there.  Exhibit 1.
14              The number of pages here, your testimony when you
15         answered Mr. Dunn's question was you think this is not all
16         here, correct?
17   A:    I don't think it's all here.
18   Q:    So it's possible that this transcription doesn't include
19         everything?
20   A:    Oh, I know it doesn't include everything.
21   Q:    Is it possible that when you say things are missing, is it
22         possible that as opposed to not being at the end or at the
23         beginning, that things could be missing in the middle for
24         example?  Is it possible that something between this
25         paragraph and this paragraph might have been left out?
0112
 1   A:    I can't tell you that for sure.  All I know is that I did
 2         the best I could off of the tape.  This is what I got off
 3         of the tape.  If somebody else that -- the way he got this,
 4         if they removed something, it could be.
 5   Q:    I understand completely where you are coming from.  I am
 6         just asking you if it's possible.  You seem to be fairly
 7         sure that this is not the complete transcript, but I'm just
 8         asking if it would be possible.  Some things might not have
 9         been -- some of the missing parts might have been in
10         between paragraphs?
11   A:    I have one spot here I know for sure something was missing
12         and I didn't know what it was and I still did not remember
13         what it was.  Words are left out here.  Right here.  At
14         this part here.  It jumps.
15              MR. HILL:  For the record, could you identify the
16         page?
17              MR. DUNN:  What page are you on?
18   A:    I'm sorry.
19              MR. WILLE:  She is referring from page 7 of 11.
20              MR. DUNN:  If you could read for the record where the
21         -- last point and where the gap begins.
22   A:    Let's start up here at Paul says "This is a real good
23         summation of the interview (looking through what we had
24         brought)."
25              "Yes, this is real good stuff."
0113
 1              "Connie:  'In your opinion, Paul, how many people are
 2         really involved in this murder?  We did not go from one
 3         what was brought.'"
 4              Paul said that he thought that there was three.  And
 5         Paul says three.
 6              "Connie:  'Just three?'"
 7              "Paul:  'Yes, just three.'"  But we had discussed that
 8         it was Spirko in between here.  We discussed it was Spirko,
 9         it was Effie, and it was James Clark Kelley, and we didn't
10         go from what was in the book to right to "It's just three?"
11         That don't even make sense.  Do you understand what I'm
12         trying to say?  It doesn't even make sense when you are
13         reading it.  People don't talk that way.  All at once --
14         where did I come up with the words, "You mean there is just
15         three."
16   Q:    Let's turn to -- just to follow up on your answer there.
17         Let's turn to page 5 of 11.  And I'm referring to where you
18         are discussing, you're discussing, you say "Connie:  'Yes,
19         I know, and where.'"
20              "Paul:  'Right.  Otherwise."  Do you see where I'm
21         referring to?
22   A:    No.
23   Q:    It's about 14 lines down.
24   A:    Oh, yes.  I'm sorry.  Yes.
25   Q:    Is it possible that there could be something in between,
0114
 1         "Then why was he indicted?  Then why?"
 2              "Paul:  'It was the prosecutor's decision.  Not
 3         mine.'"  Is it possible that something could have been left
 4         out there?
 5   A:    Yes, I can say that because we were talking about at that
 6         time Delaney Gibson.  But I feel sure -- let me look up
 7         above because the whole thing was about Delaney Gibson, and
 8         let me see if I would have thought it was talking about
 9         that.
10              No, I feel like it was right here.  That we asked --
11         we are talking about this, about Delaney Gibson.  So we are
12         still talking about Delaney Gibson.
13   A:    So I am asking him why was he indicted if he didn't feel
14         like it was him.
15   Q:    Let me just refer to a few lines further which talks about,
16         says "Paul:  'So anyway, I said, 'Look, he didn't do it.'"
17         Do you see where I'm referring to?
18   A:    Yes.
19   Q:    We read through that sentence and we come down to where it
20         says "He is not the guy.  So we go ahead and do the
21         indictment, prepare for trial, go to trial and convict the
22         son of a bitch in trial."  Do you see where I'm referring
23         to?
24   A:    Yes, I do.
25   Q:    Now, if one were to read that literally, one would seem to
0115
 1         think that when they said "convict the son of a bitch,"
 2         that would seem to be talking about --
 3   A:    Spirko.
 4   Q:    Well, is it?  Because my question is is it the others are
 5         talking about Gibson, correct?
 6   A:    What I took this as, before we were talked about Delaney
 7         Gibson, he presented it to them that it was not Delaney
 8         Gibson.  So they went ahead and took Spirko to trial.
 9         That's the way I took it.
10   Q:    So in other words, what you are saying is that the way that
11         you -- and you think this is -- the way you recall it as
12         being said is that so what you're saying is while Mr.
13         Hartman was talking about so we go ahead and do the
14         indictment, he was referring to Gibson.
15   A:    Yes.
16   Q:    Prepare for trial?
17   A:    Yes.
18   Q:    He is talking about Gibson?
19   A:    Yes.
20   Q:    But then he switches to Spirko and says "going to try and
21         convict the son of a bitch."  You follow my question there?
22   A:    I follow what you are saying, but I do not believe that is
23         the way Hartman wanted it.  I agree that's what you are
24         saying.  But I do not agree that's what Hartman meant.
25   Q:    Is it fair to say that does seem to indicate that perhaps
0116
 1         there was a, certainly possible that there was something,
 2         there was a bridge there when first you are talking about
 3         Gibson.  Then you talk about Spirko and something might
 4         have been left out there?
 5   A:    I thinking this is the way it was.
 6   Q:    To the best that you can tell.
 7   A:    Yes, I think this is the way it was, and I do believe that
 8         we were talked about they took Gibson.  They indicted him.
 9   Q:    Let me ask you this --
10   A:    And prepared for trial for Spirko.  I'm so sorry.  I mean
11         Spirko.
12   Q:    Let me ask you this, Ms. Mottinger -- what is your
13         recollection as to what evidence was presented at Mr.
14         Spirko's trial concerning Mr. Gibson's involvement in the
15         case?  Do you recall what evidence was presented by the
16         prosecutor?
17   A:    I did not go to the trial.  I do not remember anything,
18         only what Clarence had told me.
19   Q:    So Clarence did not indicate to you that there had in fact
20         been an eyewitness who had identified Gibson as a stranger
21         that she saw?
22   A:    Yes, Opal Siebert from that, that lived across from the
23         post office.
24   Q:    Now, during your conversations with Mr. Hartman at the
25         time, did Opal Siebert's name ever come up?
0117
 1   A:    Yes, it did.
 2   Q:    And you don't reference that in your notes or your
 3         affidavit.
 4   A:    It's in the other tape.  It will be in the other tape
 5         because he did talk about it.
 6   Q:    And what did he say about it?  Do you recall what he said
 7         about Opal Siebert?
 8   A:    That she was positive that she had seen Delaney Gibson.
 9         And I remember that in my mind I thought, well, was she
10         ever given a picture of Willier.
11   Q:    And let me jump a little ahead here.  But you mentioned
12         several times the idea that the possibility of Mr. Willier
13         involved has raised questions in your mind.
14   A:    Questions.
15   Q:    Fair to say.  And so in remembering what happened, it's
16         fair to say that your recollection is you always have in
17         the back of your mind, well, gee, could this be so, if
18         really Mr. Willier was involved in this and nobody has
19         discovered that.
20   A:    Yes, I can say that because in the back of my mind, I
21         wondered if she was shown a picture of Mr. Willier, is
22         there any resemblance between Willier and Mr. Gibson.
23   Q:    Would it be fair to say that Mr. Hartman, though, in his
24         conversations with you never indicated to you any disbelief
25         on his part that Opal Siebert was lying?  Would that be
0118
 1         fair to say?
 2   A:    His discussion with me was very brief on Opal Siebert.  He
 3         said she was given pictures, and she is the one who pulled
 4         Delaney Gibson out.  And that was about all he said about
 5         it that I can remember.  He didn't go in detail with her.
 6   Q:    So never said -- didn't hear him say, you don't recall him
 7         saying I don't think the prosecutor should have put her
 8         testimony on?
 9   A:    I did not ever hear him say that, no.
10   Q:    Is it fair to say he gave you no indication whatsoever that
11         he thought, had any opinion as to whether, about any
12         evidence that was presented against Mr. Spirko, correct?
13   A:    No, he was bound and determined that Mr. Spirko had done
14         it.
15   Q:    Would it be fair to say that considering everything that
16         you recall about what Mr. Hartman told you, would it be
17         fair to say that what he was saying to you was, hey, if
18         after, the -- several years later I discovered information
19         that tells me that a guy named Kelley was involved, and
20         that raises doubt in my mind now about who else was
21         involved in the case, wouldn't that be a fair way to
22         characterize what he was telling you?
23   A:    No, because he told me that he went to them and told them
24         that Delaney Gibson was not involved.  And that's what
25         upset me the most.  Why in the hell do you put someone in
0119
 1         prison for something he didn't do.
 2   Q:    I want you to be very -- I know you are trying to do your
 3         best.  I understand this is based on your recollection and
 4         so forth.
 5              Isn't it possible that when Mr. Hartman was saying
 6         this and he was making those statements that you just said,
 7         that he was talking about after Mr. Spirko's trial and had
 8         developed information which he thought was very, very
 9         pointed information implicating Mr. Kelley?
10   A:    No, he told me that he had went to Kiester and he said that
11         everybody ignored him.  He told me that he even told
12         Strausbaugh and I about a divided camp.  Him and
13         Strausbaugh after that never got along very well.  It
14         divided the camp.
15   Q:    It's fair to say, though, you have expressed before,
16         though, he never expressed any opinions about the actual
17         evidence that was present against Mr. Spirko, correct?
18   A:    Correct.
19   Q:    So again, he didn't say I went to Kiester, but he didn't
20         say and I told Kiester not to put Opal Siebert on the stand
21         because he didn't believe her?
22   A:    Oh, no, he didn't say anything like that.  I don't
23         recollect him saying anything -- all I recollect him saying
24         is that he went to Kiester and told Kiester that Gibson did
25         not do it.  That's all I recollect him saying anything
0120
 1         about Kiester.
 2   Q:    Mr. Dunn asked you some questions about some information
 3         and some discussion that we had -- excuse me one minute.
 4              You had indicated you had discussed with Mr. Kennedy
 5         the possible prosecution of Mr. Gibson and the status of
 6         his case.
 7   A:    Correct.
 8   Q:    And would it be fair to say that Mr. Kennedy told you he
 9         thought it would be difficult to prosecute based upon the
10         time involved?
11   A:    That's what he said.
12   Q:    Now, are you aware or did you know that Opal Siebert died
13         in 1991?
14   A:    I have heard that, yes.
15   Q:    And when did you learn that, to the best of your
16         recollection?
17   A:    Golly, I think when we really got to investigating this
18         about Smith and everything, people over there, because I
19         wanted to reinterview people over there and she was gone.
20   Q:    Would it -- I mean, would it be fair to say or do you think
21         that perhaps the fact that Mr. Siebert was the witness who
22         identified Delaney Gibson and she was no longer alive,
23         wouldn't that seem to propose a difficulty for the
24         prosecution?
25   A:    It would be very difficult for everybody, yes.
0121
 1   Q:    Yes.  So in your mind, then you would -- although you don't
 2         recall, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you
 3         don't recall Mr. Kennedy telling you that?
 4   A:    No, what I remember Mr. Kennedy telling me is, the -- he
 5         did mention the word "died."  Too many people have died.
 6         Too many people have moved away.  Too many people have
 7         gotten older and the recollection and the rumors that has
 8         went around, it's almost impossible now.
 9   Q:    So had he said to you, well, Opal Siebert was an important
10         witness and she had died and that would have made it
11         difficult for our case, you would have thought that would
12         be reasonable, won't you say?
13   A:    That's reasonable.  It would be difficult.
14   Q:    Going back a little bit to some questions Mr. Dunn had
15         asked with respect to our conversations, would it be fair
16         to say that in talking to me, you did express some concern
17         about Mr. Kelley?
18   A:    Yes, I did.
19   Q:    And it's true, is it not, that at the time I told you
20         basically I would check into it?
21   A:    Yes, you did.
22   Q:    And there did come a time when I indicated to you that I in
23         fact had later discovered that Mr. Kelley's name had
24         surfaced?
25   A:    Yes, you did.
0122
 1   Q:    Now, in terms of other people mentioned, I mean, you talked
 2         about, you wrote me a letter asking me some other people,
 3         Mr. Willier, the Smiths, so forth?
 4   A:    Yes.
 5   Q:    You recall Mr. Dunn's questions on that.
 6              Do you recall me tell you I had looked into and looked
 7         at the Federal District Court decision and it seemed to
 8         indicate that many of those people were discussed in the
 9         decision?  Do you recall that?
10   A:    You did tell me.
11   Q:    And did you recall me suggesting, take a look at how Judge
12         Carr's case in terms of how he discusses various people?
13   A:    You did tell me.
14   Q:    So it would be fair to say then what I told you was that in
15         looking at the District Court decision, that information
16         pertaining to these people had in fact been presented or
17         had in fact been looked at by at least the Federal Court
18         and they had indicated that they felt there was not a
19         basis?
20   A:    You did tell me that, but I wanted to pursue it for my
21         husband.  Yes, you did tell me that.
22   Q:    And, again, so your principal concern here was that all
23         people involved in this crime be apprehended?
24   A:    Yes.  I'm afraid.  I'm scared, terrified that if Spirko
25         does get executed before these other people are found, the
0123
 1         case will be considered closed, the book will closed on
 2         Janie.  Janie's life and what happened to her.  There is no
 3         more Janie and these other people are going to walk around
 4         scot-free going, made that one.
 5   Q:    And it's fair to say that you -- as much as you have done
 6         in this case, the efforts you have made, the personal,
 7         considerable personal efforts you have made, you have never
 8         really uncovered anything in your own mind that caused to
 9         you have a question about Mr. Spirko's guilt?
10   A:    Absolutely not.  I think he is just as guilty as possible.
11         I have not changed my mind one bit about Spirko.  Not one
12         bit.  And if I truly believed in my mind it was totally
13         just Spirko, I would be on the bandwagon to have this man
14         executed 20 years ago.
15   Q:    You mentioned there had been some concern expressed by your
16         husband's family and your family on you talking to Mr.
17         Spirko's lawyers.  Tell me a little bit about that.  Did
18         you -- in discussing it with them, you went there because
19         you wanted to see the whole case investigated?
20   A:    Yes.
21   Q:    Did Mr. Spirko's lawyers tell you or say anything to you
22         about why they felt your information was important?
23   A:    What they did is I told them that I had talked to Mr. Paul
24         Hartman.  And they asked me if I remember or had any
25         information about this interview.  I said, yes, I do.  And
0124
 1         they expressed that they would like to talk with me.  I
 2         said fine.  I'll bring everything I have.  And I took to
 3         them everything I had.
 4   Q:    Did they say why they thought it was important that they
 5         have this information with resect to what Mr. Hartman had
 6         said to you?
 7   A:    Yes, if it could be proven that Mr. Hartman had lied or he
 8         didn't bring forth at the time, then they could prove that
 9         there was something wrong at the trial.
10   Q:    And when you use the words "at the time," you are talking
11         about before or during Mr. Spirko's trial, correct?
12   A:    Oh, yes, because Hartman expressed to me that he was going
13         through this at the time of the trial.
14   Q:    And but would it be fair to say that though your concern
15         principally focused on information about Mr. Kelley, that
16         came about after the trial?  I mean, that would be fair to
17         say, wouldn't it?
18   A:    I mean that's the way I understood it from Hartman, yes.
19   Q:    And your principal concern was what Mr. Hartman was telling
20         you about what he found after Mr. Spirko was sentenced?
21   A:    If nothing else, you help me find him.  You help get this
22         straight.
23   Q:    And I'm going to ask you this question straightforward and
24         sincerely.  If I were to say to you that -- and this is not
25         casting any aspersions on Mr. Spirko's attorneys.  I'm not
0125
 1         trying to do that.  If I were to say to you their job is to
 2         uncover evidence which then will show that Mr. Spirko got
 3         an unfair proceeding, you understand that, correct?
 4   A:    Yes.
 5   Q:    And it's their job to in essence show with perhaps hoping
 6         to find information that Mr. Hartman indeed did something
 7         wrong which calls into question Mr. Spirko's conviction.
 8         Fair to say?
 9   A:    That could be a possibility.
10   Q:    Can I ask you how would you feel about that?  I mean, what
11         would your -- you had indicated before some very strong
12         emotions here with you and Clarence.  What would your
13         feeling be about that?
14   A:    I went to them and I told them explicitly, absolutely that
15         I felt Spirko is the dirtiest dog there is alive.  I wanted
16         Spirko executed.  What I want is to ask Spirko about Mr.
17         Willier.  Ask him.  Get him to say who helped him.  He did
18         not do this alone.  Please help me.  You're talking to
19         Spirko every day.  Help me.  In fact, I even asked them if
20         I could talk to Spirko myself.  I mean, I am desperate to
21         find these other people.  That is the main reason I did
22         that.  Nothing else.  Not to get Spirko off.  Not to give
23         him any headway, any wind behind his back or nothing.  No.
24   Q:    Do you feel that in talking to them -- I mean, do you feel
25         that first they understood that that's what your purpose
0126
 1         was?
 2   A:    Yes, because I said it when I went in.
 3   Q:    And did you come to believe that?  Was that part of their
 4         purpose, too, do you think, or do you think they were
 5         interested in mainly assisting Mr. Spirko?
 6   A:    To tell you the honest truth, they kept very well contact
 7         with me.  They have told me everything upfront.  They have
 8         been very close about this.  And they listened to
 9         everything I said, and they tried to answer every question
10         that, sir, I even brought up to you.
11   Q:    Did they ever lead you to believe that they were interested
12         in pursuing the prosecution of any other co-conspirators?
13   A:    Lead me to believe that they were going after James Clark
14         Kelley or anything you mean?  Is that what you are asking
15         me?
16   Q:    Did they ever lead you to believe that they were interested
17         in prosecuting any other co-conspirators of them?
18   A:    They were interested in what I had to say.  They took down
19         notes on Smith and all of it.  They led me to believe that
20         they would help me.  Yes.
21   Q:    Did Mr. Dunn ever tell you that Mr. Dunn and Mr. Hill are
22         attempting to use your statements and affidavit to overturn
23         Mr. Spirko conviction and statement?
24   A:    I asked and I begged and I pleaded that I not be involved
25         in this, that I want Spirko to go down.  But I had already
0127
 1         went to them.  So they have to use what they have to use.
 2         But I don't want Spirko to be.
 3   Q:    Did they tell you they were going to use it to, in support
 4         of an attempt to overturn it?
 5   A:    At the time that I was there, no, sir, they did not.  I
 6         asked them afterwards where is this going, especially when
 7         I had to sign an affidavit, and they said it was because
 8         there is something wrong here at the trial, and we have got
 9         to prove it.  And then I said if Spirko does not get the
10         death penalty because of what I have done, is that man
11         going to walk to kill somebody else?  I asked them that.
12   Q:    And what did they say?
13   A:    They said it was very doubtful that he would.  He did
14         something wrong, the parole, and he had lied on the witness
15         stand and there was numerous things that would prevent him
16         from walking.  But he may die in prison.  He might have
17         permanent life in prison with no parole.  That he would not
18         get out from what I had done.  But to tell you the honest
19         to God truth, I want to see this man die along with these
20         other men.
21              I want to make this perfectly clear.  I did this to
22         get these other men.  I did not do this to help Mr.
23         Spirko's attorneys, to help the man on the moon, to help
24         whoever.  I did not do that for that purpose.
25   Q:    I want to go back and talk, ask you a few more questions
0128
 1         about your discussions with Mr. Hartman.  At the time that
 2         you were talking to him, did you know he had been retired
 3         from the --
 4   A:    Yes, he told me he had.
 5   Q:    And did you know he had been retired?
 6   A:    No, I didn't.  I didn't ask.
 7   Q:    Tell me again, you did destroy your notes, correct, with
 8         respect to your discussions?
 9   A:    I did.
10   Q:    And why did you do that again and tell us why you did that?
11   A:    I don't spell well and I write my own little handwriting.
12         I'm not a secretary and my own little abbreviations, and I
13         wrote all the way around and everything else.  It was
14         almost impossible for someone to cypher that other than
15         myself.  And so I typed it so that it would be quite clear,
16         quite plain.
17   Q:    You mentioned also that you had spoken with Mr. Painter?
18   A:    Yes, Bob Painter.  Yes, I did.
19   Q:    And did you ask him about anything about how he had become
20         interested in Mr. Spirko?
21   A:    No, what happened is Mr. Painter and I have no knowledge of
22         how he got my phone number, but he had called me and said
23         he was making some interviews with Mr. Spirko, wanted me to
24         have knowledge of this and what was going on.  I thanked
25         him for that.  I didn't ask him anything.  I asked him to
0129
 1         please send me those articles when he did them.  And he did
 2         that.
 3   Q:    Did Mr. Painter tell you or indicate to you who had
 4         contacted him first about Mr. Spirko's case?
 5   A:    No, he just told me he had had an interview with Paul
 6         Hartman.  He didn't say he contacted him or if Paul
 7         contacted, either way.  I mean, he didn't say that.
 8   Q:    He didn't tell you.  Did he say anything about how he had
 9         first become interested in the case?
10   A:    No, I did not.  He did not.  We didn't go into talking
11         about that at all.
12   Q:    Now, just a couple of final questions.  How did you come
13         about to have contact with Mr. Spirko's attorneys?  Did you
14         contact them or did they contact you?
15   A:    No.  In fact, I even wrote that out.  I'll tell you --
16         okay.  Because I wanted to make sure I had everything right
17         because Theo was so upset.
18              How everything led to speaking to Mr. Dunn.  Paper
19         article came out by Bob Painter of the "Plain Dealer."  I
20         checked all facts with what I had and his investigation was
21         right with all I knew from all my interviews.  It made
22         sense and I wanted to find Willier and make sure that the
23         men along with Spirko that did the murder would be punished
24         like I promised Clarence I would do.  End of article said
25         the investigator that Willier talked to about the murder
0130
 1         was Bill Latham.  So I called him to find Willier.  He
 2         talked to me for over an hour and made even greater senses
 3         what should be done.
 4              He called Dunn about me.  I called Dunn also.  Dunn
 5         and his firm met with my father and I in Washington, DC.
 6         Told about interview with Hartman.  That was all the firm
 7         seemed to be interested in.  Just told them the truth about
 8         that interview.  They wanted the tapes.  Called Theo
 9         Bennett because he had the tapes.  And that is when
10         everything went to hell.
11   Q:    Tell me just how many discussions.  What was the extent of
12         your discussions before you went to DC?
13   A:    My extent.
14   Q:    Yeah.
15   A:    I talked to Bill Latham.  He told me to call Dunn.  I did
16         call Dorothy Bennett which is Clarence's sister and I said,
17         "I'm so confused.  I don't know what to do."  And she said,
18         "With the truth, that will always stand up."  Then I said,
19         "Then I think I'm going to tell them and see if I can get
20         any help from them."  And she says, "Go for it."  Then I
21         called Theo Bennett.  He was not home.  And I left the next
22         morning.
23   Q:    Did you call Mr. Dunn before going to Washington?
24   A:    Him and I had correspondence because he -- I told him I
25         didn't know how to get there.  So he e-mailed me
0131
 1         correspondence of directions of how to get there.  And that
 2         is the only -- no, no, I take that back.  That is not the
 3         only time.  I had correspondence with Mr. Dunn and his firm
 4         about the petition.  I had also sent them a letter along
 5         with the petition.  That was all I had to do with him until
 6         went to Washington, DC.
 7   Q:    So again, just to summarize, how many conversations did you
 8         have with him before you actually did go to DC?  Do you
 9         recall?
10   A:    I wrote him a letter once with the petition.  I called him
11         on the phone.  He called me back to make arrangements, and
12         I called him I think back to say okay.  I could make it.
13         And then he e-mailed me the directions and I left.
14   Q:    And how long were you in DC?
15   A:    Oh, I had a meeting with Mr. Dunn I think it was -- I'm not
16         sure.  Nine or ten o'clock in the morning I believe it was.
17         And I was -- we left at suppertime.
18   Q:    How did you get there?  Did you drive?
19   A:    I drove.  My father and I drove.
20   Q:    And did you have meals there and so forth while you were
21         there?
22   A:    Well , yeah.
23   Q:    Did Mr. Dunn's firm pay any of your expenses for your trip?
24   A:    During our interview, Mr. Dunn and his firm gave us
25         sandwiches, a salad so we could keep on talking and get the
0132
 1         interview done and over with.  He did furnish that.  And I
 2         told him I had very limited funds, which I do, sir,
 3         extremely limited since my husband has died.  And he did
 4         furnish me hotel accommodations.
 5   Q:    And as far as like gas or meals or anything?
 6   A:    Oh, absolutely no, no.  All he took care of, all he took
 7         care of and because I could not make it without his help,
 8         was the motel expenses and then during the interview, while
 9         we were talking we had sandwiches and there was pop
10         furnished and so forth.
11              (A recess was taken.)
12                                 -  -  -
13   BY MR. WILLE:
14   Q:    Just a couple more questions.  I promise.  Not that many
15         more.
16   A:    Okay.
17   Q:    You talked before about Clarence believing that Mr. Willier
18         was a co-conspirator with Mr. Spirko?
19   A:    Yes, yes.
20   Q:    How long did he hold this belief?  How many years would you
21         say he felt that maybe Mr. Willier was involved?
22   A:    As long as I knew Clarence.  I met Clarence in 1988.  And
23         as long as I met Clarence, he had that belief.
24   Q:    And to your knowledge, he attempted to pursue this with the
25         authorities?
0133
 1   A:    Absolutely -- well, he kept mentioning every time we was
 2         with someone did anyone ever check on Willier?  It was
 3         always a question in his mind, yes.
 4   Q:    But you don't know as far as -- I mean, you have no
 5         personal knowledge, though, of exactly what was done in
 6         terms of how that was followed up.  Is that fair to say?
 7   A:    That's right.  All I know is what we tried to do.  Clarence
 8         and I is what I'm speaking of.
 9   Q:    You had mentioned Mr. Hartman's statements about Mr.
10         Kelley.  Again, could you tell us what Mr. Hartman
11         indicated to you in terms of what he thought the evidence
12         involving Mr. Kelley was?
13   A:    Yes.  He had a key that he had found at the premises at
14         Elgin Post Office that he had kept.  He felt like -- and it
15         didn't fit none of the boxes at Elgin Post Office.  So he
16         felt in his mind that it had to belong to the perpetrators
17         or the people that was there.  And he kept this key and he
18         hunted and hunted and hunted.  It did turn out that this
19         same number that was on this key was also -- and I'm not
20         positives but believe he said Marion.  He did tell me.
21         It's in the tape.  He did tell me.  And that is also where
22         Mr. Kelley had been at that exact time that this key had
23         been put out.
24   Q:    In your own mind, if that key, if that were true that this
25         key was connected to Kelley, in your own mind would that
0134
 1         indicate to you that Kelley is guilty?
 2   A:    Not necessarily.  I mean, it could have went into someone
 3         else's hands and it could have floated anywhere.  But the
 4         thing of it is is that Mr. Kelley had admitted that he had
 5         done it.  The pictures of him and John Spirko was also
 6         together.  And that his reason for him being in jail was
 7         that he was, did post office.  I mean, that is what Mr.
 8         Kelley did his lifetime was post office.  So you add the
 9         key and the time and he liked post office.  He admitted he
10         murdered a post mistress with Spirko in the State of Ohio.
11         That all kind of fits.
12   Q:    If that were true, then what about Mr. Willier?  If that
13         were the point, would you then think that perhaps Mr.
14         Willier wasn't involved?
15   A:    No, I still think he was there.  If you really want to
16         know, I believe like my husband that Mr. Willier was
17         involved somehow, some way along with John Spirko.
18   Q:    You mentioned one time your husband thought the Smiths were
19         involved.  Do you think they were also involved?
20   A:    Maybe not in Janie's murder.  I don't mean that, but with
21         them being in the drug problems and being into the drugs
22         and the drugs coming in and the Findlay men always going
23         over to speak to them, I think that their being in with the
24         drugs had something to do with all this.  But not them of
25         them themselves.  No, I don't think Smith himself would
0135
 1         have anything done to Janie.  No, I don't think that at
 2         all.
 3   Q:    But you think the drug activity had something to do with
 4         it?
 5   A:    Yes, I do.  Really Clarence always mentioned quite a few
 6         times.  If you had been to Elgin, sir -- I don't know if
 7         you have or you have not.  But if you have been to Elgin,
 8         why would anybody pick Elgin?  I mean, even people around
 9         there don't go to Elgin for any reason.  I mean, you would
10         -- it would have to be for something extremely special.
11         You don't just walk into Elgin, you know.  And this is why
12         Clarence kept thinking it has to do with Willier and the
13         guys from Findlay.
14              MR. WILLE:  No further questions.
15                           -  -  -
16                    REDIRECT EXAMINATION
17   BY MR. DUNN:
18   Q:    Mrs. Mottinger, I just have two or three follow-up
19         questions.
20   A:    Okay.
21   Q:    It appears to us and you may have read some papers that
22         even state this, that Theo Bennett has possibly told Mr.
23         Wille or Mr. Prichard that he has destroyed the tapes.
24         Have you read this or heard of this?
25   A:    What I have heard is that it could be possible.  You have
0136
 1         sent me information over the e-mail, documents, and in the
 2         documents it said that Theo and Marlene Bennett was
 3         contacted, and he said he destroyed the tapes.
 4   Q:    Were those documents filed with the court?
 5   A:    Yes, yes, yes.  Yes, yes, those are the only documents.
 6         I'm sorry.  I didn't make it clear.  Yes.
 7   Q:    Other than what you have seen in those documents, have you
 8         heard anything from anyone about what has happened to those
 9         tapes?
10   A:    No.  It's just that Theo threatened he would destroy them
11         before he let anybody have them.
12   Q:    But you haven't heard from him or any of your other friends
13         or relatives about what happened to the tapes?
14   A:    No, in fact their name and my name is banned to be spoken
15         in the family together.  Nobody will talk to me about Theo,
16         and I will not talk to anybody about Theo.
17   Q:    Just a quick question about your statements about the death
18         penalty.
19              In your view, would the level of involvement that a
20         Defendant had in a crime, would that affect your view of
21         whether that Defendant should get the death penalty?
22   A:    Explain this more so I make sure I know exactly what you
23         are speaking of.
24   Q:    So whether the person planned it and was the lead versus
25         whether they were just a supporter, for example?
0137
 1   A:    Oh, my God, no.  If someone stood there and watched someone
 2         kill someone else, they are just as guilty as that one.
 3   Q:    You think that person who stood there and let it happen --
 4   A:    And left it happen because they permitted it.
 5   Q:    That person should get a death penalty, too?
 6   A:    Yes, absolutely.
 7   Q:    You mentioned reaction of the family to what you have been
 8         doing.
 9   A:    Yes.
10   Q:    I know this may be hard, but if you could just explain a
11         little bit about what the reaction that has occurred from
12         your family.
13   A:    I live with my daughter.  My daughter supports me in
14         everything and anything I do.  I have no problems with my
15         daughter over this.  None, none.
16              My father also lives with me.  My father says, "Go for
17         the truth.  Go for justice.  You will come out ahead."  My
18         father is very much for telling it the way it is.
19              As far as the rest of the family which would consists
20         of Clarence's three children, Kent Mottinger, Kay Varley,
21         and Doug Mottinger, I have not spoken to them since the day
22         of their father's funeral.  They will not talk to me.  I
23         have no knowledge of what they feel about this, about any
24         of this, or if they know any about this.  I have no
25         knowledge of that.
0138
 1              When it comes to the rest of the family that I am
 2         speaking of, that is Clarence's sister, Dorothy Bennett.
 3         Dorothy is very bad, ill health, got the same heart
 4         problems and stuff Clarence also had.  She just says,
 5         "Connie, just go for the truth and I love you to death."
 6         She has loved me and loved me and loved me, but we do not
 7         speak about Theo and about my problems with Dorothy because
 8         her husband is Theo's brother.  I'm not going to talk bad
 9         about his brother not helping me out in -- that's not
10         right.  Without Theo being there to defend himself, I will
11         not do that.  So I do not speak about Theo.
12              But Theo has gotten very upset, and I have heard from
13         the family that he is irate over what I have done.
14   Q:    That Theo is irate?
15   A:    Yes.
16   Q:    And has that had any other repercussion with respect to
17         your relationship with anybody else in the family?
18   A:    No.  We just don't speak about Theo.  We don't speak about
19         Spirko.  We no longer speak about anything I have done or
20         haven't done.  And our life is trying to go on.  I have
21         nobody left but Dorothy, Clarence's sister.  That's all I
22         have left of the family.
23   Q:    And do you think that is in part because of your
24         involvement with what you have been doing?
25   A:    In part it could be, but a big part is that his -- I am the
0139
 1         second wife.  He left everything to me, and the children
 2         were very upset over that.  So that has a lot to do with it
 3         also, why the kids don't have anything to do with me.
 4   Q:    And has there been any affect on your relationship with the
 5         grandchildren?
 6   A:    I have lost them.  I'm talking about Clarence's
 7         grandchildren through his kids.  I was very close.  That is
 8         one of the reasons, one of the reasons why Clarence and I
 9         moved up here, to be with those grandchildren.  I have lost
10         them.  When I lost the parents, I lost the children.  So
11         basically over this I have lost the children.  I have lost
12         the grandchildren.  Theo was part of the family, or I
13         considered -- I stayed with Theo and Marlene overnight
14         quite a few times.  I have lost them.  I have lost a lot.
15              MR. HILL:  Off the record.
16              (A recess was taken.)
17                                -  -  -
18              MR. DUNN:  First all, thank you, Ms. Mottinger.  We
19         don't have any further questions.  I assume Mr. Wille does
20         not have any further questions.
21              MR. WILLE:  No further questions.
22              MR. DUNN:  Mrs. Mottinger, you have graciously agreed
23         to let us have your computer for a short period of time so
24         that we can see whether we will be able to find on the
25         computer the documents you have been referring to; is that
0140
 1         correct?
 2              THE WITNESS:  That's wonderful.  I think that's great
 3         if you can do it.  It will back me up.
 4              MR. DUNN:  And the Attorney General's office has
 5         agreed that we will be able to take the computer if we
 6         represent to the Attorney General's office anything we do
 7         remove from the computer, we will provide a copy of that
 8         material to the attorney generals's office as well as to
 9         the court.
10              MR. PRICHARD:  We are in agreement.
11              THE REPORTER:  Will there be reading and signing?
12              MR. DUNN:  Ms. Mottinger, you have the right to read
13         and review your deposition after it's typed up, getting a
14         copy of this and reading it over and making any corrections
15         you want.  You don't have to do it.  It's really --
16              THE WITNESS:  I tell you what.  I feel very confident
17         that I have no problem with anything I've said.  I am very
18         confident that I have covered everything.  I don't need to
19         read it.
20              MR. WILLE:  You know how the state does business.  Do
21         you mind if you just call us and we'll give you all the
22         information that's necessary?  They don't give us credit
23         cards to use.
24              THE REPORTER:  This is another reporting firm,
25         Alderson Reporting.  I need to at least record if you'd
0141
 1         like a copy of the transcript or not.
 2              MR. DUNN:  Thank you very much, Mrs. Mottinger, for
 3         your time today.
 4              THE REPORTER:  Would you like a full-size transcript,
 5         condensed, key word index, a copy of the exhibits and an
 6         ASCII disk?
 7              MR. DUNN:  That would be fine.  And there is no rush.
 8              MR. PRICHARD:  We'd like to order the transcript.
 9              THE REPORTER:  Would you like the full-size
10         transcript, key word index, condensed, ASCII and a copy of
11         the exhibits?
12              MR. PRICHARD:  Yes.
13              THE REPORTER:  And do you need the exhibits scanned on
14         to a disk or just attached to the transcript?
15              MR. PRICHARD:  That would be great.  Scanned and a
16         copy with the transcript.
17              MR. HILL:  That would be good for us as well.
18              (At 11:54 AM the deposition was concluded, and the
19         witness was excused.)
20                                 -  -  -
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0142
 1                                 CERTIFICATE
 2              I, Karla D. Worthington, a Notary Public in and for
 3         the County of Steuben and State of Indiana, hereby certify
 4         there appeared before me on Wednesday, May 18, 2005, Connie
 5         Mottinger, who was duly sworn to testify the truth, the
 6         whole truth, and nothing but the truth to questions
 7         propounded at the taking of the foregoing deposition in a
 8         cause now pending and undetermined in said court.
 9              I further certify that I then and there reported in
10         machine shorthand the proceedings at the said time and
11         place; that the proceedings were then transcribed from my
12         original shorthand notes; and that the foregoing transcript
13         is a true and correct record hereof.
14              IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this
15         _________ day of ____________________________ AD, 2005.
16   
17   
18   ________________________________________
19   Karla D. Worthington, CSR, RPR
20   Notary Public, State of Indiana
21   Residence:  Steuben
22   My Commission Expires:  April 27, 2008
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25